Zoe Amar  0:04  
We are delighted that episode of Starts at the Top is sponsored by Arvato CRM solutions. Arv ato CRM solutions designs and delivers award winning customer service, business process outsourcing, and digital and Intelligent Automation solutions with some of the world's most respected brands, as well as innovative charity and public sector clients. They partner with clients to help them define their customer experience and transformation strategies by implementing the right technology, people and processes to improve their customer journey while driving new efficiencies and helping them prepare for the future. To find out more about how avato CRM solutions could help an organisation like yours, and to receive a free no obligation chat, visit avato.co.uk forward slash Wales air ambulance.

Kim Perlow  1:14  
It's not just a tick box exercise, it has to offer something that adds value both from a consumer standpoint but also from an employee standpoint. 

Paul Thomas  1:26  
Welcome to a brand new episode of Starts at the Top, our podcast about digital leadership and change. I'm Paul Thomas. 

Zoe Amar  1:33  
And I am Zoe Amar this week is volunteers week in the UK. And so it's fitting that our guests on the podcast today is Kim Perlow, CEO of Link Up London, an organisation that harnesses professional skills for social good through skill skilled volunteering. 

Paul Thomas  1:51  
So yeah, Link Up's approach struck a chord, a friend of mine, Sophie started to work for them - we are hoping to hear from Sophie - started to work for them after volunteering through Link Up London a few months ago. And it really struck a chord with me just because of their approach to harnessing professional skills within organisations rather than the sort of the old traditional approach to volunteering, which is, you know, corporate organisations, sending in a bunch of people to paint a wall or to build a greenhouse out of plastic bottles are the things that we've all done in the past 

Zoe Amar  2:29  
100% Paul, and both you and I have been brought together through many things, but also a shared love of volunteering. And we're both long standing volunteers for various organisations, what has been your most memorable experience as a volunteer? 

Paul Thomas  2:44  
Well, I think since since about about three years ago, now I decided to approach a local charity that I was part of a fundraising evening, and they were sort of stood up on stage saying, this is the help we need. And I thought, well, I can help with the digital marketing side of this. So stepped up and said, happy to come in and three, four years later, I'm a trustee and working with them on a very regular basis across all of the things that they they are doing in the local, local community here where I live in Hemel Hempstead, which is Dacorum, the Dacorum Community Trust. So I think that's the most memorable one for me was that just by sort of going off and having a conversation with a charity that was clearly in need of some skills experience, suddenly led to an opportunity where I'm hopefully doing some really good stuff with them week in week out. So that was that's probably it for me. How about you? 

Zoe Amar  3:46  
Well, I think my most memorable experience was being a trustee. And I've done, god... it's something like 15 years as a trustee, across various different boards, I think four different boards... showing my age... But my most amazing experience as a trustee has absolutely been serving as a trustee at Charity digital, recently started my second term. And it's just such a privilege to volunteer in that way. Because as he was saying, you get to use your skills. And also you get to meet lots of interesting people and be involved in helping shape the future of an organisation. So every time I go to a board meeting, it sounds cheesy, but I really do feel very, very fortunate to be able to volunteer and help that charity. 

Paul Thomas  4:32  
Yeah, really good to be able to do it and even sort of dragging my family into it. There was an event in the park recently where we were selling sweets for the charity. And both my youngest and my wife came along to help sell the sweets. So you know, so good to just drag people into it and also the privilege that you have to then introduce other people and other volunteers to the organisation which I've hopefully managed to do on more than one occasion. Anyway, Zoe, this week, as seems to be every week at the moment, there's a lot of noise in the news about AI again, and he wanted to share one story. 

Zoe Amar  5:12  
Yes, more AI news following our brief update about AI regulation last week. So we had some developments from the Centre for AI safety. And they shared a single sentence statement. It was signed by leaders from open AI who obviously have the Chat GPT product, Deep Mind, among other notable leaders in this space. It's not an especially helpful statement, I think, because it is simply a one sentence statement, suggesting some of the risks that AI can pose. And in fact, it might have been better as a tweet, perhaps, you know, rather than just a one sentence statement. I think what's slightly frustrating about this is, it's useful in the sense that we obviously need to be talking as societies and in business about the risks and working out how we can better regulate AI and how we can create more of the right guardrails around it as it is developed and scaled further, as Rory Stewart was saying, on the rest is politics podcast, which is an AI special today, and we'll put put pop a link to that in the show notes as well. It would be really helpful if these tech leaders who frankly know more about these tools than anyone could actually be specific about some of the areas of risk. And in my view, also have some clear suggestions about what can be done to mitigate those risks. And for example, that could be various areas of regulation or different sectors really focusing on growing skills, or perhaps a different approach to venture capital or, you know, grant funding in the case of the charity sector. So I think it'd be wonderful if they could be a bit more specific about what the nature of these risks are, the impact they could have, and the actions that they would like decision makers to take in order to mitigate those risks. 

Paul Thomas  7:20  
Yeah, it's quite exciting. Actually, I've just on the site now, the statement itself is, is just this mitigating the risk of extinction from AI should be a global priority alongside other societal scale risks such as pandemics and nuclear war. So in one sentence, they've set panic in the way that nobody's seen since Terminator 2: Judgment Day. And at the bottom of this statement, you can filter all the signatories by AI scientists and notable figures. I like the way they just they form a distinction between the two. And the other thing I really liked about this was in the BBC story about it was the the good news that Rishi Sunak says, but it'll be alright. AI is good, as well as, as sort of leading to our ultimate extinction. So if Rishi is alright with it, then I'm sure we should be alright with it, too. 

Zoe Amar  8:13  
That's quite interesting, because hasn't Rishi called recently to have a firmer hand on the regulation? And obviously, as we said last week, that there's a government white paper out at the moment, and so it's very timely. So feel like that's potentially a slightly mixed message there. But anyway, we'll see what happens next with it. 

Paul Thomas  8:32  
He's essentially saying that there are benefits to the economy and society, which would would assume that that's come out of that meeting as well. So he's talks about all the all the good things that are coming out of AI and it is a balance, isn't it? There is a number of, you know, I used to work with an AI organisation who were doing great things with the RNIB, around support for those with sight loss and blindness. And you know, there is some great stuff going on, but equally, we probably do me need to be mindful. Yeah, I might joke and sort of talk about the stories of science fiction. But a lot that has been written in science fiction has come to pass. So we do need to, we do need to keep an eye on an eye on these things so good that they are flagging it. Not very helpful that it was a single sentence statement. I don't think that's the right way to go about it. But then, you know, what do we know Zoe? We are just two lowly podcasters. Anyway, just ahead of our conversation with Kim, here's a short case study from Sophie Bradley. Sophie, who is now working for lingkup London who started as a volunteer tells us a bit about her story, and why she thinks link up London is such a great organisation to work for.

Sophie Bradley  9:52  
Throughout my professional career, I have always been involved with charitable organisations, whether that's as a volunteer on the ground floor, whether that's as a donor, a fundraiser or to raise awareness about that charity, but last year something changed. I had a light bulb moment I became aware of an organisation called link up London through one of my previous social media marketing students. And I decided I was going to sign up. The idea of being able to share my professional skills and for others to share their professional skills with social good organisations, which incorporates community groups, small to medium sized charities, and social enterprises in the London area. It just seemed so amazing what a wonderful way to be able to utilise your professional skills to help others to develop their skills, put in place tools that they may need to be able to work more effectively so that they can actually do the work that they are designed to do, which is to work with the communities that they have always strived to do more effectively, and build stronger communities. It's just a win win situation... Gave me so many light bulb moments, I cannot explain them. I saw that a role became available at Link Up London to lead on a new programme supporting social good organisations. I thought yes, let's get on board with this. I applied fortuitously I was successful. And now we are in the middle of launching this new programme called the Be Heard programme where the most amazing marketing and comms professionals are coming on board. I'm still working part-time as a freelance social media marketer. The balance between the two is fantastic. It means that I can support others and champion others and help to grow strong diverse communities in the London area whilst continuing to develop my professional skills in both areas. Absolutely fantastic. And that's my story.

Paul Thomas  12:07  
On to our interview with Kim Perlow. Kim Perlow is the founder and CEO of Link Up London, an organisation that harnesses professional skills for social good through skilled volunteering. Link Up, which started in 2016 is committed to building stronger communities and offering meaningful volunteer opportunities by connecting skilled professionals with charitable organisations in areas such as legal finance, human resources, communications, marketing, data strategy and organisational development, and much much more. Link Up developed out of Kim's experience with organisational development combined with an understanding of the value of volunteering and some of its challenges from her own professional experience and personal volunteering with the goal of providing valuable volunteering opportunities that fit into busy people's lives. Prior to Link Up, Kim worked for five years as COO, and then Senior Advisor at the London based Institute for Strategic Dialogue, the Think Tank and before that she spent nearly a decade leading and consulting to a number of civil society development programmes internationally focused on building the charity sector in countries of economic transition.

She has experience with organisational development, volunteer management, cross sector partnerships and grant making and has focused on issues of philanthropy, corporate social responsibility, and employee volunteer programmes at different times throughout her career. Kim, welcome to Starts at the Top. 

Kim Perlow  13:35  
Thank you so much for having me. Delighted to be here. 

Paul Thomas  13:39  
You're more than welcome. So we're launching this episode in volunteers week 2023, which is an annual celebration of the contribution that millions of people, including Zoe, and myself and you Kim, make across the UK through volunteering in their communities. So how do you view the condition of volunteering in 2023? 

Kim Perlow  14:01  
It's a really interesting question. And there's a lot of talk about it at the moment, a report just came out from NCVO called Time well spent, which has made the claim that volunteering has actually gone down since or in the last year, so it's gone from 23% of the population volunteering in the UK down to 60% of the population volunteering. There's sort of a number of reasons for that. I mean, I would actually say it's, it's, it's in transition. Some people are saying it's in crisis, I think actually, crisis, to be honest, will lead to opportunity. And we're sort of in this transitional space at the moment of sort of from the pre pandemic sort of way of volunteering that had always sort of been the way of doing it to sort of the the space that we currently find ourselves in.

There's been a changing demographic. So that's one of the big things is the majority of volunteers had been sort of the 50 Plus previously and they had sort of been involved have, in longer term more regular volunteering. And that's changing, that group actually pulled out of volunteering during COVID more than any other group and has reentered more slowly in terms of the voluntary and that is being done. But then what has happened is you see sort of the younger population stepping up and from anecdotal information. And from what we've seen, you definitely see sort of, kind of the mid career sort of people that we hadn't previously seen signing up in large numbers getting involved.

And I think the other thing that pandemic did was sort of so many people went out, it connected people more with their communities, and people went out to support their communities, volunteering became accessible for many people, although there are those examples of people wanting to volunteer and not being able to, but there was sort of this, this growth of mutual aid going on, there's all sorts of things happening on the community level that people could get involved with. And so it feels like it's sort of there's a, the, the younger generation sort of was exposed to it in a different way through that, and we're seeing kind of the trends of, of that sort of evolving out, I think the other piece that really happened during and post COVID is, is sort of the virtual space became an acceptable space for volunteering, a lot of organisations worked hard to sort of create that space quickly. And it's not going away. And actually, some people are finding it to be a much easier way to volunteer. I mean, for us, we went virtual, as well. And, you know, it makes it really possible, we now allow people to have opportunities either in person or in the virtual space, but it really allows for much more flexibility. And so that space for volunteering is sort of becoming a more prominent space. So we actually haven't seen a decrease in the type of work that we're doing at all, in terms of volunteer signup, we have seen sort of that the trends, you know, we have seen the younger, the younger people sort of engaging with us, and we've seen, we've, we've seen that the virtual space really, really, really works. Well, I think what they're looking for, and there's something out there, and you're probably familiar with it the vision for volunteering, again, by NCVO, which is sort of a 10 year kind of vision for what volunteering should become or can become, and sort of how it's evolving at the moment. And there was discussion last week, sort of on this, and sort of some of the themes that came out is like this real need for micro volunteering opportunities. So something short and sweet that you can get into, but you don't have to have a long term commitment for maybe less bureaucracy around some of the volunteering. So make it more accessible, make it easier, make it possible, which isn't possible in every circumstance by any stretch of the imagination, because you probably do need DBS checks and certain things for some types of volunteering. But there's other ways so it's looking at are there other ways that people can engage? That is different than kind of what the way we've traditionally seen and refer to volunteering. 

Zoe Amar  18:24  
That's very interesting about the rise in mid career volunteering. What do you think has led to that Kim? 

Kim Perlow  18:30  
So interestingly, I mean, we're seeing it so I, you know, actually, I say that more from a skilled, voluntary perspective. So that's what we actually do. And I think we've really seen the rise in that. And I would say, you know, from the conversations we've had, both with our volunteers and sort of, you know, looking at the trends that we're seeing, it's coming from this understanding sort of that volunteering, is possible. So I think the problem with the mid career is people are incredibly busy, right? Like, if that's when you're sort of on the rise in your career, you're probably you know, you may be having children, caring responsibilities come into play, there's all sorts of things. And so it's actually quite challenging, you know, at the best of times, to sort of carve out that time to volunteer unless you're, you know, hugely committed, but you can come up with every excuse under the sun not to do it, no matter how much you want to and I think, from COVID, again, sort of that connection to community, that connection to giving back that connection to doing something important and meaningful people really did reconsider their lives a lot. I know what it sort of feels like we talk about that a lot. But people did step back and say, you know, where is the meaning and everything I'm doing so there is a real, there's more of a drive for that potentially. And I think with the skilled volunteering is becoming clearer and clearer that you know, this actually is offering career advantages. It's not just over the skills development involved in it. It's not a one way. It's not a one way I'm giving my skills to this organisation. The evidence that we have people sort of benefiting professionally, from the experience is huge. 

Paul Thomas  20:06  
And you're you're currently going through the process of launching a new corporate programme, social impact solutions, which aims at directly answering that question the people within organisations with skills that they have to offer being able to offer them within communities. Can you tell us a bit more about that programme and how you're aiming to run it? 

Kim Perlow  20:26  
Yeah, of course. Yeah, we're really excited about this programme, actually. And it's been a few years in the making. So the work that we do normally is not, we don't work specifically with corporates, however, the majority of our volunteers come from the corporate space, but we're not in partnerships with companies to bring those volunteers in. However, you know, there's, there's a huge kind of resource sitting in these companies that, you know, we're really excited about trying to figure out how do we mobilise and get those skills kind of into the surrounding communities and create more sort of strategic engagement. So actually offering something to the organisations, the charitable organisations that working with that goes sort of beyond your traditional kind of team building or volunteer activity where you're cleaning the river or painting the fence or whatever it is that you're doing, but trying to sort of harness those skills and bring them in a in a sort of a structured way into the community. So we're really taking we've worked over the past many years to develop this model of skilled volunteering, which is not just sort of a platform where we connect people, but it's very much, we have a very kind of human approach to this, we talked to all our volunteers, we've talked to all our organisations, we're always present at initial matches, we create project plans to help them deliver at which allows us to then be part of monitoring and supporting along the way, because we have a clear understanding of what they're looking to achieve. Our projects, I should say, they're all short term. So they can be anywhere from a few hours to six months, but we tend to cap it at six months, you come in and you deliver something, it makes it feel quite manageable from the volunteer standpoint. So what we've done with a corporate programme is really take this model and what we know has worked and and sort of package it in a way that corporates could access and get their employees involved. So we have sort of different options, different ways you can get involved in a two hour event, a one day event, or sort of a longer term, three months kind of process that you have teams working together to support organisations

Paul Thomas  22:50  
What sort of size of organisations are we talking about? So on the on the corporate side, we're talking mainly bigger organisations, I guess, with the sort of fully fledged programmes, but the charities that the organisations that people are volunteering into, presumably a much smaller to medium size. So how does it work? 

Kim Perlow  23:10  
So exactly, I mean, the company is, it's interesting, and it's a real mix of companies. So that have, you know, that we're engaging with so some are, are quite large, and others are, you know, working to design a programme. And I think this is sort of a you know, it's so not all of them have an established programme that we're working with, they're looking at ways that they can engage. I think skilled volunteering in general is beginning to start sort of moving up in people's agenda, because they're looking at the potential for different options for people to volunteer that I think it's beginning to sort of some companies, not all of them, but some are beginning to understand that there's sort of a kind of, not everybody wants to do the same type of thing and enforce team building is not necessarily a fun and positive experience for everybody. And that there's other ways to do this that would feel more authentic to their employees and actually, and benefit them more. So it's a bit a real range of companies to be honest. In terms of the organisations that we work with on the ground, the charitable organisations we work with on the ground, they are small to medium sized, which could be you know, there's 168,000 charities registered in the UK, about 26,000 of them are in London. And you know, about 80% of those or more are small. So the majority of the organisations out there are quite small they're community based, small meaning there's different there's different kind of criteria for small but you know, some will say it's a million an annual turnover or a million for us it we do work with one ones that are a million to 5 million, but the majority are probably around the 100,000 mark in terms of their turnover, so they do have staff there, and they're, they're doing really good work in the community. With that said, we work across the range. So we do work with very micro organisations that are just starting out some of the bigger ones, but to be honest, the bigger ones can afford consultants. So this, you know, isn't necessarily the right space for them. 

Zoe Amar  25:24  
And I know you've talked to Paul before about how smart use of volunteering can help leaders take a step back and look at the bigger picture. What is the best way for leaders to do that, because it's so hard to get the headspace to think differently Think creatively as a leader, isn't it? 

Kim Perlow  25:42  
I think it's really hard. And I think that one of the biggest challenge, especially with the size of the organisations we're working with is just time people are overworked and under resourced. And I think that's true across the sector, at the moment that these organisations, there's been huge demand on them through COVID, Cost of Living crisis, you know, Ukraine, the invasion of Ukraine, this is all sort of has had a significant effect on these organisations. And deed is definitely going up in communities and resources are going down. So there's a lot of strain on these organisations. And a lot of them will say, I feel like I'm chasing my tail, I just need to keep going, you're treading water. And so it is, it's hard to sort of create that space. But we do work with them to sort of talk about that, you know, if you can just, you know, if we can cut out some of that time and bring somebody in to work with you, that's going to ultimately save a lot of time, as we all know, right? If we can take that breathing space.

We don't impose anything on these organisations so that we work toward their priorities. But we will encourage and interestingly, what we're seeing right now, and it's sort of these trends throughout the year, so at the beginning of the year, it's been a lot of craziness that no one's had time to even think and they're all it's beginning, they're beginning to have time to think about development. And then if you can step back, and you can have somebody come in and just start talking to you asking you questions about what you're doing, and help you think I mean, that always generates an interesting time, right? You always helps you think if somebody from the outside comes in and sort of like, what what is that you do, right, and you're talking to somebody all of a sudden, who doesn't, you know, speak your language in the same way, it really helps you try to sort of work through some of the issues that you're having. And we hear that a lot. I mean, the organization's really appreciate having that. And it's, it's not an easy thing to find. So right in terms of the way so that actually is out there that exists right now. So again, you know, for us to be able to offer that to them, to have somebody who, you know, has had, you know, we have a few, you know, incredible volunteers out there right now, who actually are retired, but have had these massive careers, you know, doing just incredible things, starting, you know, from startup companies, growing them into sort of major corporations. And we have another one who, you know, had been a, he actually started as a surgeon, and then went into kind of managing research for King's College of Cardiology, and then went into running hospitals, right. And this great man, he's just amazing the way he thinks, and you know, he'll go in to these organisations and sit down with them. It's, I mean, it's huge. You know, and I feel lucky when I get to have conversations with them, right? Because we'll start asking those questions. So it's just trying to help create, helping them think about the value of that space, and then being able to fall away at the right time for them in terms of the work that's going on. 

Zoe Amar  28:46  
Yeah, brilliant, and what an amazing base of skills to tap into, what a broad range of skills to tap into as well. 

Kim Perlow  28:54  
I'm regularly in awe still, of the people that signed up to volunteer for us, because the it's just incredible to me, the people who are out there that are willing to do this, and they come to us again, up till now they've come to us on the road, not through sort of any corporate programme, but they've come to us and said, You know, I'm willing to do this. And there's, there's a huge variety, you know, about 70% of them are coming from senior leadership, or sort of management roles, and have significant experience. What has been really fascinating, however, is that, you know, a lot of people still have impostor syndrome. And we're hearing this regularly, people sort of saying, Well, you know, you've gotten so people will get so narrow in their careers, and they become this expert, you know, appear that they sort of are like, well, I can't, you know, it's it's recognising kind of the value of your skills. And that, you know, even though you're an expert at one thing, you know, Paul, you're a great example, you're an expert in digital space, but you're running your own company. There's so many different parts of or skills, but both of you actually right, that you could offer that aren't just the digital space. Right, but you could come in and do strategy, or you could come in and at least, there's just a lot out there. And people struggle to recognise that. And I think that is one of the things that we hear, you know, from, from the experience is that real valuing of sort of the broader range of skills they have, as well as valuing the skills themselves, if you take yourself out of a company that you've been in for 20 years, you know, and apply those skills in a different way, you can see the value of those skills that you don't necessarily see in your day to day work. So for example, like if you're an accountant, and you're in a, you know, an apartment of 50, right, and you're just one of the many people churning something out, then you come in and work with an organisation are able to, you know, probably quite easily for you restructure their finance system, which is like, just huge for this organisation, right, and the change that you can make for them, you begin to really see the value of what you have to offer. And you can take that back in to the workplace and people do regularly, it helps them really think slightly differently.

I think you can probably, you can achieve a bit more as well through a sort of a simple conversation or volunteering rather than thinking, actually, I'm out, you know, that's something that I don't feel comfortable with, or if you've impostor syndrome is a real thing, right? You know, not just people try to sort of push it down. It's, it's real. So rather than thinking, you know, this is this is someone I can help long term, it's more How can I apply my skills to a simple conversation or a simple series of conversations, you know, meeting over coffee, that mentoring, coaching side of what Zoe and I will do, as you know, sometimes you can't sort of wrap a project around something, sometimes somebody just needs a conversation or a helping hand to get them over the hurdle. And I think that's that's probably a lot of what you're, you're talking about here. Yes, it's really, it's really interesting. I've just remembered back to during the pandemic, and Zoe, I'm not sure whether you were part of this as well. But there was something I did called Digital candle, which was, I think it was...

Was that smack Collins, Matt Collins, shout out.

Paul Thomas  32:28  
Yeah, shout out to Matt. So Matt Collins at platypus digital who set it up. And that was, I think, I think the commitment was an hour, you know, an hour's conversation with somebody that you were you were matched to say, right, these are my digital marketing experiences, this is my experience. And you know, somebody would say, Well, this is what I need help with. And then you'd be matched, I had a really interesting conversation with someone who I still stay in touch with now. And it was enough for him to have a conversation that sort of sparks, as you said, a few ideas away forwards out of a conundrum that he was in, and then you've got a real connection that you can can build on moving forward as well. So sometimes it's the power of just having a conversation rather than really thinking about how do I delve in especially, you know, as I said, the examples of going in and painting a wall or building a greenhouse or something like that, that doesn't really contribute anything to the overall organisational strategy. 

Kim Perlow  33:27  
And I think that's really true. I mean, we do have a number of projects, you know, that are more of a, you know, a series of conversations, sort of more strategic, and not necessarily, were creating a new strategy or something like that, but just more strategic or supporting or mentoring. And we also run something, actually, that we call flash consulting, which is sort of that idea of it's an hour conversation, but it's sort of structured, and they come many organisations come with kind of a challenge that they're facing at that moment, and we pair them with a volunteer, and just that our conversation, you know, that ends with an action plan for the organisation basically, is enough to really move the number of them forward. So yeah, I think there's there's so many different ways I think, goes back to sort of the original kind of discussion on like, volunteering isn't just one way of doing some, there's so many different ways you can you can get involved and share what you know, and help others and it's finding the right opportunity for you. And I think that for us as well is you know, and it's how do you fit into busy schedules, because everyone's busy. And so the way we're structured is very much about creating opportunities that allow people to engage in a way that works for their schedules, and not the other way around. So that we're able to get those skills in to the organisation. So that could be you know, they're working at night, they're doing whatever, but it's based on milestones, so they don't have to be somewhere every Thursday at three which isn't going to work for them. 

Paul Thomas  34:57  
Yeah and what trends are you noticing? So there's a lot of a lot of skills out there in the in the corporate sector. And we just went through in your introduction talks about a number of them marketing, digital marketing, finance all sorts of different things. Wherever, wherever the trends, currently pointing, what are people asking for help with? 

Kim Perlow  35:19  
So interestingly, at my, my team meeting today, we were just talking about, right, what do we need to be focused on and for, like, you know, the seventh week in a row, it's social media, is the use of the digital space, which you guys know, well, and I think that COVID, you know, really played a part in this, although it was coming probably more slowly previously. But for the sector, they're really still playing, like they were playing catch up for a fair amount of COVID. And it was quite reactionary. And now I think it's about trying to get on top of it and becoming more strategic weather. And so we're really beginning to see, you know, we've seen a really, we've always seen, so comms has always been kind of one of the key areas, because it's interestingly, it's not resourced as well as other things, right. So it's the area that in a sense, is hugely important to organisations, but it's sort of the, it's quite under resourced in terms of what where organisations are able to place their, their funds and their focus. So comms is always has been really important. But social media in the digital space right now is so big, that we're actually and I think, Paul, you know, this, we're launching a programme called the Be Heard programme right now, which is specifically geared toward kind of a more strategic approach to helping organisations with their communication. So it's sort of a series of three projects, based on an a sort of an initial assessment of where they, their needs are in this space, and then trying to bring different volunteers in to work with them over the course of a year to really help them develop this out in a way that that works, for them and for their own capacity. And I think that's huge to a lot of these organisations, you know, you can come in, and people can come in with great ideas and great experience. But if you come in and offer them something that you know, is going to require 5000 pounds for them to deliver what they don't have that 5000 pounds, so you got to come in and understand the capacity, they have to actually deliver it and the resources they have available. And so I think that's one of our volunteers. I mean, it really forces creativity. For some people, you know, if you're, if you're in a marketing department, you're used to working with a big budget, that can sort of solve this problem, all of a sudden, you can't write and you have to sort of, you know, really think about what you know, and I think that's where some of the professional development and the learning comes from always no matter what level you're at, to really work through some of this. But the digital space is a is a real demand at the moment.

Zoe Amar  37:54  
And speaking of that kind of variety of skills, and also some of the changes that you've seen as well, you mentioned that lots of organisations are shifting their CSR agenda towards ESG strategies. So would be great to hear a bit more from you about what that means for where charities are seeking to engage with charities, then, based around that shift from CSR towards ESG. 

Kim Perlow  38:19  
I think it's really around the idea that CSR... CSR started in the 1970s, as a sort of a major is an idea and built, but it never was able to fully integrate into companies, business strategies, and you know, some companies do it really well. And they were able to, but the majority, it was sort of it was always sort of running alongside it, it was the nice to have, it was great for the marketing team, maybe you got to tick the box that you had done it, that just going to help you with something. But it wasn't really part of the company. And I think what ESG is trying to do is build upon that and really make it more a strategic part of the work that a company is doing, it becomes part of the business case, part of their strategy. And I think that, you know, is in reaction to, you know, the continually major crisis that are out in the world, people are demanding it, they want a solution. So it's not just we're gonna go out and make money. Now we're gonna go out like that, how is that going to affect the climate, all these major crises that are out there, that that the companies are beginning to be demanded by consumers and employees to pay attention to and so it's sort of this trend is reactionary, in that sense. I think what it's also looking at is, it's making it more measurable. It's focusing on impact, it's making you sort of you need to be able to show what you've actually done as a company. And so for the work we're doing, I mean, it means that they're looking you know, company views are now needing to find more, sort of, it's not just a tick box exercise anymore, it has to be more meaningful, it has to offer something that adds value, both from a consumer standpoint, but also from an employee standpoint. And so I think those connections, and again, that's sort of going to be the transition slightly from the painting the fence to other activities, it doesn't always have to be skilled volunteering, but there's other ways you can engage with organisations that really meet their needs, you need to understand what they need, not just what you need, right and create something that works for both. There's there's so many really interesting, you know, examples out there, when a company just really starts thinking about and working with an organisation to identify how they could do something together, that really makes a huge difference to both of them, not just to one or the other, 

Zoe Amar  40:54  
Wanted to ask about big help out, obviously, huge, high profile campaign about encouraging more people to get involved in volunteering. What's your take on that campaign? And do you think it's going to lead to long term change around interest in volunteering?

Kim Perlow  41:11  
Good question. I mean, I know there's been a lot of talk about it. And I know that, you know, if you go onto their website, they say 6 million people got involved, which is incredible, if you think about some of the stats that are coming out about sort of the numbers of people that were involved in COVID, which is about 12 million. So that's, that's a lot of people, that's 6 million in terms of volunteering on the day. And I think that, you know, there's, it feeds into this idea that there's really been a, you know, there's this decrease in volunteering, and people are looking for how to, you know, organisations are looking for how do we get more volunteers, involved and engaged. So I don't think there's ever anything wrong with raising the visibility of that. And, you know, this was a big opportunity to do it. I, you know, I know, there's been a lot of debate about connecting it to the coronation versus not and, you know, there's all sorts of different things, but in and of itself, you know, I think it offers opportunity, I think it's sort of about what happens next with it. So some organisations have on their own initiative, you know, taking it forward and tried to turn it into, you know, a connection to volunteer week and sort of building upon because Volunteer Week is coming up, right, so that that month that using this month to really grow, a number of organisations used it, you know, just as a way to provide information sessions, about their volunteering to engage more volunteers. So if it, if there's a way to continue it, if it can become a sort of an annual activity that does tie into volunteer week or, or it's about raising the awareness is great people need to, or organisations need volunteers, and there's got to be a lot of ways to ways to help people find them. This is potentially one way of doing that. It'd be interesting to see, you know, and I'm not sure anyone will be tracking this, to be honest, but you know, from this experience, are, you know, from the organisations that had volunteers, do any of them, you know, translate into longer term volunteers? Are they people that stay engaged? Or is it a one off? Do they get more involved maybe just as a funder donor or supporter or whatnot, but has it provided kind of a value to that organisation? In some way? So I think it's, you know, it's it's hard to, it's really hard to to know. But I don't think anything that raises the visibility of it as a bad thing, necessarily. It would be more about the longevity of it, as you said, and I think that's hugely important, because a one off is going off. So how do you turn it into something that's more substantial? And I'd be curious what your thoughts are, though? I mean, were you involved in it?

Zoe Amar  44:09  
No, I wasn't, I mean, I know quite a lot of people who were involved in it. It was great to see the charity sector getting so much coverage and suddenly being a big national news story consistently. So I was really proud of the sector for that. As you say, I'm very interested to see where this goes in the long run, whether they can sustain that growth and interest in volunteering. I really hope they can because I think that volunteering has been so instrumental to how I develop my skills and my career. I think that Paul would probably say something similar. 

Paul Thomas  44:40  
That was my experience of, I did a volunteering, exercise, if you like in in Grant Thornton, where it was a local organisation, a local charity, who had a series of local charity shops and a team of us went and worked in the shop for for one day did the sort of the traditional thing where you turn up and you disappear at the end of the day, however, I got involved in a conversation with somebody from the communications team who was telling me about, well, these are the challenges that we have. And I said, Well, why don't I pop in and try and help you. And then I was sort of in and out of that organisation for about two years, on and off happily, helping them with things like social media and marketing strategy and communication strategies and stuff like that. So you just need to be there. And you need to ask the questions, I think sometimes is the answer. I guess it's ironic isn't it's a bit weird to say it, but does it mean I did that open up as well opportunities for another generation, but a generation that really, as a know, doesn't have doesn't really engage or it's a tough thing isn't the sort of the engagement levels around the coronation. I was stood in a field volunteering for my, the charity that I'm the trustee of I was in our local park, watching this on a screen. And there were a mixture of people in the in the park, it was raining, were extra people in the park, but it was it was families but with young children. So it was young children that had been sort of forced into go to the park and sit in the rain and watch the the coronation on the big screen. But there was a severe gap, I guess, with with sort of younger volunteers or younger people that might sort of look at that and look at the opportunity over that weekend and, and get involved. So yeah, just be how it how it sort of ties in, I guess, with the the overall sense of of that event. And as you said, tying it in annually with something that's a bit more focused on the opportunity of volunteering, I think is probably a very, very smart move, because I'm not sure. How will it connected more generally, we're talking of young people and the next generation, this is a generation that's now sort of entering the workplace that is, I mean, demanding more, they want to work goes back to your original point about locked down and the changes we made, we sort of wanted to start working more locally, we wanted to work with organisations or we wanted to be more community focused, add real value to the places we live in, and then the communities we live in, in the work that we do. So what's your experience? And how do you how do you look at this new generation entering the workplace and what they want from their employers? Is that changing your approach at Link Up? Are you having to sort of go after that generation? Or is that generation coming to you? 

Kim Perlow  47:37  
Yeah, good question. I mean, I think youth volunteering, and in general is sort of a whole a whole conversation on its own, because I know there's there's challenges and it is one of the areas that there's really discussion about how do we get the youth kind of engaged in voluntary and more strategic ways, but in answer to, to this, I think it's been really interesting for us. So we are seeing more and more of them through COVID and beyond finding us. But you know, there's a real drive in many of them. So it's interesting, from a volunteering standpoint, maybe they're not as engaged. But from a social justice standpoint, there's a lot of passion about, you know, social impact, and doing things that are good and climate change, and sort of making sure that, you know, your company is holding true to the values that claims so you know, you come in being told something, and they want to see that being delivered. And we all know, they are very happy to pick up and go to another company, if they don't see it. There's there's much more movement within this generation. But what we are seeing is that in a number of cases, that they've come and volunteered with us, and they're taking it back to their companies and pushing and saying you need to get involved in this, you need to do this, you need to we want to see more opportunities like this, which has been really, really interesting for us to you know, that they're, they're really sort of looking to be heard around it. And so I think there is a I mean, it's, it's, it's an interesting, it's a really interesting generation to be engaged with, but I do think because of, of sort of, you know, the past few years, combined with sort of this real drive from them for a sort of social engagement, we're really seeing them sort of start getting more involved in these types of opportunities, that sort of the types that we're offering and I'm sure others are too but that are you know, that are really offering them something meaningful and that they feel like they're able to take Make a real a real difference and be connected to their community. So we, you know, our feedback 90, 94%, you know, will tell us that as a result of their project with us, they do feel, you know, that they've really contributed to the community. And, you know, also, I mean, I think along those lines, you know, we get 91% will talk about skills development, and you know, and all the different pieces of that, be it communications or leadership, or just the different opportunities, or valuing, or seeing your skills in a different way, or actually learning, thinking about things differently. And then 94%, will also talked about sort of issues around wellbeing, and it does, you know, we know volunteering in general, there's sort of a real, kind of the the reason people engage with it, right is you want to most people say they want to, you know, they want to make a difference, they want to do something they want to contribute, they want to give back. And you know, and we definitely see that coming through quite regularly, as well. But it's about you know, it's your the well being is being affected people are feeling more confident, they're feeling that they have, they're feeling happier, they're feeling that they have to unities in the future. It's really interesting, the feedback that we're getting around that, as well. So I think there is a it's an interesting generation. And I think there's a huge potential  and possibilities. 

Paul Thomas  51:31  
It's great, we'll have to dig out the stats, but there's a there is a stat that I saw recently, we can put it in the show notes, but it's it's a stat that talks about the the impact or the positive impact on volunteers, turning up at Parkrun and, and helping Parkrun on sessions run on a Saturday morning versus the actual the runners that have the huge impact on the people that are turning up to volunteer. But we'll we'll figure that one out. Thank you so much for for your time. It's great to hear what Link Up is doing and what you're achieving. Where can people find you whether they're Gen Z or leaders of charities looking for help or or, or leaders in big organisations looking to do things differently? How best, How is it best to connect with you and link up? 

Kim Perlow  52:25  
Well, our website is a great starting point, in terms of what we're up to, and just getting a better sense of who we are, which is its linkuplondon.org. But you know, I'm very happy for people to reach out directly. And we if you're on our website, you can you can easily apply either to volunteer or to engage with us as an organisation or if you're a company that's interested in engaging as well. We are a small but very responsive team. And so we do you get back, we feel as I said strongly about the human interaction piece of it. And so we are engaged with the with the sort of the different people we work with. And I would just say, you know, from a call to action sort of standpoint, that you know, I think all skills are valid, valuable, people need to recognise that they have something to offer. And I think looking at volunteering, and outside of the traditional lens of I'm gonna go out and work in the food bank, which there's nothing wrong with that at all. But that there's, there's these, you know, these other ways of doing it, and that organisations as well are learning about this other way. It's not, it's not natural for them either. So there's there's sort of a lot of opportunity out there for people to engage and use their skills and think about, you know, how they, how they can contribute and get back through them.

Paul Thomas  53:51  
Thank you so much to Kim for coming on to the podcast and sharing her views on volunteering. If you'd like to find more of the links to Link Up London's website will be in the show notes. And Kim has also suggested you can directly connect with her on LinkedIn, she'd be more than happy to talk to you. 

Zoe Amar  54:08  
Next up in a couple of weeks is our conversation with Donna White of the Prince's Trust, who will be discussing how your organisation can best market itself online during a cost of living crisis. It's a great conversation. We can't wait to share it with you. In the meantime, you can find us on Twitter, we're at at Starts at the Top one. And you can also email us at startsatthetop@gmail.com

Paul Thomas  54:36  
And if you listen to us on Apple podcasts or any way you can rate and review, please do it really, really helps us with our reach and getting in front of more listeners. So we'd love you to leave us a review if you can. And we'll see you again in a couple of weeks. 

Zoe Amar  54:51  
See you soon. Thanks for listening.

Paul Thomas  54:52  
Bye.

Zoe Amar  54:52  
you soon. Thanks for listening

Transcribed by https://otter.ai