Michael Rucker: I think fun is anything that's- that's
pleasurable, right? And so, we realise that a lot of what we
had talked about pre-pandemic was really forced fun, which
isn't fun at all for most people.
Paul Thomas: Welcome to Starts at the Top, our podcast about
digital leadership and change. I'm Paul Thomas.
Zoe Amar: And I'm Zoe Amar. Today's episode is a little
different from our usual format as we talk about fun in the
workplace.
Paul Thomas: What we're sharing today is a great discussion Zoe
and I had in December with Emmy O'Shaughnessy, who's Director of
Innovation & Growth at Oxfordshire Youth. And Michael
Rucker, creator and author of The Fun Habit: a brand new book
about the pursuit- pursuit of joy and wonder and how it can
change your life. Michael is also CDO at Active Wellness in
San Francisco and an Organisational Psychologist and
Behavioural Scientist.
Zoe Amar: This was a fascinating conversation, and we're so
pleased to be launching it during the week, which is
supposed to be the hardest in January every year. And we
covered a lot of ground in this chat with Emmy and Michael. And
one of the things that we talked about was how we define fun, and
how do we make it inclusive for everyone? Well, we all have very
different ideas about what fun looks and feels like. So Paul,
how do you see fun? When have you had the most fun at work?
Paul Thomas: Well right now Zoe.
Zoe Amar: Right now? [Laughs]
Paul Thomas: Right now! This podcast. Yeah, I think it's
funny, isn't it? And I think we go- we go into this in some
detail in the episode, but the the conversations we all used to
have about, "oh, let's go and have a fun day out. Let's go and
do a team building exercise", and that sort of thing. And, and
how that is just not fun. I think most of the fun that I
found at work was in the one to one interactions with people and
making sure that the people that gave me energy, I guess, and
made me happy at work were the people that I sought out and
spent time with. And it was always good if those people were
in your team and the people you worked with day to day. But I
think for me it was about the people and just making sure I
made time to be with them. How about you?
Zoe Amar: Yeah, I agree. I mean, as someone who is an introvert,
I've never really liked that enforced idea of fun. And
especially back in the days when I worked in the city and in a
corporate environment. There were a lot of assumptions about
fun that I found quite challenging as- as a young
woman, especially a woman of colour. So for example,
everyone's gonna go out drinking and get really hammered. And
that's not really me, because certainly now I don't drink at
all, I'm half Chinese, I'm going to be going quite red and feel
quite ill. So I think that's one of my takeaways from this
episode is actually it's not about this top down idea of
'this is what I think fun is', because that can create a really
weird power dynamic, it's actually about empowering people
to tease out what- what their idea of fun means to them.
Paul Thomas: Yeah. Now a thing that was key wasn't it in this
conversation - everybody's idea of what fun means is completely
different. You drew up the- the dictionary definition, which was
more about joy and enjoyment, and pleasure and those sorts of
things. And everyone experiences that in different ways. And to
make it really inclusive is to make sure that you listen, I
think Emmy will make a point that everyone will hear later
about listening and making sure that you involve everyone in
the- in the decision. So you don't end up in a pub, or in an
escape room or something like that with people that you don't
want to spend time with. It's about spending time and energy
with those people that give you that energy back.
Zoe Amar: Oh, god absolutely! You've reminded me I'm going to
an escape room from my 12 year old's birthday party tomorrow.
So I don't know whether that's gonna be fun. It's gonna be fun
for him, certainly. It's interesting what you say there
just before we get into that conversation, because for me,
fun is- is about nerding out with a tonne of post-its and
people who I love working with and who I'm learning a lot from.
And then for other people, it might be that trip to the pub
after work. So you're right, I think we need to look at this in
a much more democratic, inclusive way.
Paul Thomas: For sure, for sure. And I think that's what we sort
of arrived at during this conversation. And is the entire
focus of Michael's books. We don't want to take too much away
from him. We just want to get on and share the episode and see
what- see what Emmy and Michael had to say.
Zoe Amar: And now for our conversation with Emmy and
Michael. We are very excited to have two amazing guests here on
Starts at the Top today. Emmy O'Shaughnessy is the Director of
Innovation and Growth and Deputy CEO of Oxfordshire Youth.
Studying her MA in applied theatre at Goldsmiths college
led Emmy to practice community arts, particularly with young
people in care, disabled young people, and those living through
mental health challenges. Her studies explored the themes of
love and creativity as joint catalysts for community powered
healing and social change. She has been a charity CEO for a
community art centre, founding the first disability Youth Arts
Festival in Oxford, ROAR, and a trustee for arts organisations
working with young women, a youth worker, and a poet. Her
own care experience has been a guiding presence in establishing
core values of belonging, community healing, joy, creative
freedom, and kindness. In her current role, she centres
collaboration and imagination in designing systems change
approaches to tackling the root causes of inequality, in Oxford:
the second most unequal city in the UK. We are also delighted to
welcome Dr. Mike Rucker to the podcast today. He is an
Organisational Psychologist, Behavioural Scientist, and
charter member of the International Positive
Psychology Association. He has been academically published in
publications like The International Journal of
Workplace Health Management. His ideas about fun and health have
been featured in The Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post,
Fast Company, Psychology Today, Forbes, Box, Thrive Global,
Mindful, Mindbodygreen, and more. He currently serves as a
senior leader at Active Wellness, and is the author of
the new book: The Fun Habit, which is available in January
2023. Welcome to Starts at the Top Emmy and Mike! Thank you so
much for joining us here today.
Emmy O'Shaughnessy: Thank you for having me. [Laughs]
Michael Rucker: Thank you for having us.
Zoe Amar: We are so thrilled to have you both here today. And
before we hit record earlier, we were talking about how those
definitions and maybe even those experiences of fun have evolved
for all of us since March 2020. So I wondered whether we could
start with you Emmy, and you could tell us about how your
definition of fun has evolved since that time?
Emmy O'Shaughnessy: Yeah, I mean it does still feel like we're
living in a kind of before and after times. So- and now we're
kind of integrating this- the experiences we all had through
COVID and feeling our way through to- to what our lives
are like now and still processing I think a lot of what
happened, and how it's changed us. So I don't think there's
been a hard and fast transformation of- of what fun
means to me. I think the way that I have fun and the way that
we have fun together, in work and within friendship is still
similar to the ways that we had fun before, but I suppose what
happened for me in work, during the pandemic, and that period
was really an opportunity to be creative about how we could stay
in connection, and bring ourselves and our humanity to
the fore during really, really troubling, uncertain times. And,
you know, at that time I was running the art centre, so it
wasn't where I was now. And, you know, we- we found a way across
the team of 13 that we were then of sharing and exchanging
stories that that bonded us together. And I think one of the
definitions I most kind of I'm drawn to around fun is this
sense of lighthearted pleasure. And that felt like a really
difficult state to get into during COVID. The feeling of
being light hearted, during such a difficult and lonely time. But
we you know, I think people did manage it. And I remember back
to all of those amazing videos that were being shared in early
stages with a surge of creativity, in terms of how
people were expressing this new experience of being in lockdown
in really creative ways brought people a sense of lighthearted
pleasure at a really difficult time. And it was really
interesting to- to observe that over the course of COVID those
really started declining I think as the weight- the weight and
the heaviness of that human experience just felt like
interminable. And so kind of within our own organisation, we
did find ways of kind of sharing music and songs that we loved. I
remember posting putting things in the post, boxes of cookies to
members of the team with a little handwritten note. Just to
keep those- those connections and those bonds feeling rich.
But I think that is one of the things about an experience like
COVID and what we went through, and now with the cost of living
crisis, is that the longer heavy situations go on, the kind of
more effort you have to put in to really fight for the
importance of pleasure and fun and joy. It- it becomes more
difficult and challenging, but even more necessary.
Zoe Amar: Absolutely, fun can feel like quite a hard won state
can't it when we're going through this continuous period
of turbulence like this? And Mike, how about you? How has
your definition of fun changed since since COVID began?
Michael Rucker: I think dovetailing off of Emmy, the
definition per se hasn't changed. You know, for me, it's
similar, in psychology, there's this academic term called
valence, that essentially just means pleasure or lack of
pleasure. And so I think fun is anything that's that's
pleasurable, right? And so COVID didn't necessarily change that.
I think what COVID did in the context of fun at work is that
we realised that a lot of what we had talked about pre pandemic
was really forced fun, which isn't fun at all, for most
people. And so, one, there was this empowerment, right? Because
autonomy was essentially a component to be able to survive
that. I mean bosses had to essentially relinquish some
control to allow their companies to continue to operate. And I
think people felt comfortable with that, and realised that
they had a little bit more agency, maybe than they did
before. And so now what we're seeing is that folks, post
pandemic, understanding that, hey, fun at work specifically is
supposed to be a little bit more inclusive. I would bring up the,
you know, French case that was popular last week about the
gentleman that just, you know, one court case, saying that my
company's version of fun wasn't fun for me at all. And, you
know, when he had kind of expressed his opinions, he was
fired. And he ultimately won that case, right. And I think
that's a good example of what's kind of happening across the
board globally is like, you know, if you're prescribing or
suggesting that I have to do something, that's really an
extension of work, that's not necessarily fun for me. And so
strong leaders are really co-creating these inclusive
environments and approaching them with a lot more empathy,
which I see as a good sign, and a change post pandemic than what
was happening in pre-pandemic.
Zoe Amar: I'm so pleased you've raised that news story, because
Paul spotted it earlier this week, and DM'd it to me, saying
"we must talk about this on Friday with Emmy and Mike!"
Paul, can you just give us some background on the news story,
for anyone who's not familiar with it?
Paul Thomas: Well, I'll have to try and remember, yeah, but it
was a french- french guy who sort of literally stood up and
said, "no, this forced activity is not something that I want to
do", and because he- he sort of stood up for- for, well probably
many people within the organisation who had a similar
view to him, they fired him for it. And he took them to court. I
mean, that's essentially it. I guess it is that sense, isn't it
that we all have within organisations and often it's
around things like you know, recently with somebody I've been
working with there have been discussions about 'why is fun
always associated with going to the pub and alcohol? Why is fun
always associated with taking me out of my day to day and
supplanting me somewhere where I'm now forced to take part in
an activity that just isn't fun for me, you know, because I
don't like that sort of thing?' And I think there's a very
different- there's a different thing there isn't there, versus
what Emmy and Michael have shared, which is much more based
around kindness and fun as a sort of a lightener to the
heaviness of work rather than, you know, what we've all been
used to: team building, which is- is not the same thing.
Emmy O'Shaughnessy: Yeah, I was thinking this morning actually
about this idea, before we met in terms of forced fun, because
I read one of your blogs Mike on this. I was really interested in
it because I was thinking about the Google offices and when they
first started putting out the images of them having kind of
slides at work and table tennis setups and their environment
just being this kind of mini playground. I was thinking how
at the time people- there was quite a lot of buzz around it
being a creative environment and one that was stimulating this
playfulness and creativity. And then I think, the more I
reflected on it, and especially after reading your blog Mike, I
was thinking it actually, there's something a little bit
sinister about those environments that in some ways
are trying to control your states of mind and being for the
purpose of you being more productive. Like is- was the
purpose of designing those environments to genuinely from
the heart create a- create a relaxed, playful space? Or is it
to create a kind of artificial sense of fun, where people go
and kind of decompress a little bit from work so that they go
back to work and work harder? And that, for me feels like a
kind of undercover mechanism of capitalism. Make it look pretty
on the outside, but is it coming from a really authentic place of
wanting people just to have a good quality of life, and- and
connect with each other in a meaningful way? Those are my
thoughts, on environments and how we build fun looking
environments at work in a way that's like authentic.
Michael Rucker: Yeah, I think it's twofold, right? Like,
obviously, I agree with that since [laughs], but I think
allowing employees to self select, because Google does do
some things wrong, but where they get one thing right, is
they have affinity groups. And so that allows employees some
self selection, like I get to choose to do this, rather than I
have to do it. And so I think that's the key distinction. It
doesn't become an extension of work, if you're self selecting
into it, because it's something that you enjoy. And the added
benefit of that is it's generally cross departmental. So
you know, you're getting there's no sort of leadership dynamic,
or, you know, where that can become quite problematic, right?
If your boss asks you to come to happy hour, you're a lot less
likely to say no, but if you're self selecting, and it's from a
different team, then you know, that might be something you
actually want to do. And so I think that that's the
difference.
Zoe Amar: Do you have any advice either of you on some principles
on how we can make fun inclusive in the workplace?
Michael Rucker: I think it starts with empathy, right? You
really need to listen. I've been talking to a lot of folks
smarter than me with this problem specifically. And I
think the crux is psychological safety, right? That is the
common theme that comes up. One colleague of mine, a gentleman
by the name of Jeff Harry, he said it in the most funny way
he's like, so in the States, a big team building thing is
escape rooms. I don't know if they're as popular in the UK,
but like, so you take a bunch of employees that don't like each
other, and then lock them in a room, like... [Laughs]
Michael Rucker: Like in that context, that's terrible, right?
Zoe Amar: [Laughs]
Paul Thomas: [Laughs]
So I think starting, you know, from a place of empathy, and
really listening, and then co-creating that experience,
whatever it is, as something as simple as 'do we want to take
this meeting outside and walk and do it', because that's an
appropriate thing. I mean, that's low level pleasure, but
it's still making something, you know, that's kind of stuffy and
boring within the context of a boardroom and making it more
enjoyable, right? You know just things that are a lot more
creative, you know, based on the- you know what that
particular group finds fun. So I think that's where it starts
psychological safety.
Emmy O'Shaughnessy: I think that listening piece is really
important. And- and I know that that requires time. And a real
commitment from people in organisations saying, 'building
empathy requires really deep listening', and that's gonna
take time, and that's not necessarily like a work
scheduled task. It's kind of a way of being together as an
organisation. And I think what I've what I've noticed recently,
in our organisation, about 50 plus employees, is that there
are just as many versions of what it means to have fun as
there are people that you're working with, right? So
recognising the diversity of experiences and diversity of
ways that people resource themselves through fun and what
fun means to them. And I've been since being asked to come on
this podcast, I've been asking different people across the
team, different ages, what does fun mean to you? What that
looked like? And there is- it's the recognition that- that there
will be a real variety across the board and being able to be
open to that diversity of experience when it comes to what
brings people pleasure, and what brings people joy is, I think, a
really important part of making it inclusive. And also giving
choice. So recently, I've gave kind of three or four different
things that I had found as activities for us to have some
time together as a team. And then we had a big discussion
about it, and what it would mean for people and what kind of felt
a bit uncomfortable and out of the comfort zone. And you know,
that was healthy, and then the next time around, it will be
somebody else in the team who comes up with their selection
and offers it out. So I think that opportunity to bring choice
is completely crucial. As well as like really celebrating the
diversity, the full spectrum of fun across the community you're
working with, and being willing to like dip your toes in
somebody else's version to try it out and you never know what
it might teach you and, and bring you.
Paul Thomas: It's funny, though, isn't it? Because I remember- I
remember back in- in my sort of corporate days, we moved
offices. We had a really nice set up in one office, we moved
to another and there was a real sense of, we've moved over here.
We're all sitting in different locations. We're sort of not
necessarily together in the same way that we used to be. How can
we bring a sense of community and adjustment? And we stole- I
stole something from from Twitter, and I think it was- I
think it was something that was shared on- yeah I can't remember
where it was shared anyway, it was stolen from Twitter, and it
was called Tea Time. And what it meant was, every Thursday at
four o'clock, we just had a- we made tea and cakes, and we put
them in the kitchen area. And if you wanted to come along to it,
you could come along. And it gradually sort of the- the
immediate thing was, it was suspicion. Why do you want to
give us tea and cakes and why four o'clock on a Thursday?
Well, that just made sense. People were generally in the
office on a Thursday. Friday was a time when people weren't
around so much. It was a nice thing to lean into- into Friday.
There was nothing to be suspicious about. But what it
became, was exactly that, where you had people that started to
get in touch with me and said, "can I have a slot at tea time?
I want to update somebody on- I want to update the team on some
work that we're doing", or things like that. We even had
it- it started to become a way for people that practice
different religions to come and share their holidays and
experiences that we wouldn't normally get as a team. This is
how we celebrate these religious festivals and things like that.
But the- the crux of it, the thing that started it was just
us saying "right, half an hour on a Thursday. Let's just take
that out of the diary. Make sure people know that they have
something that they can come and attend". And I don't know
whether it still goes on today. Probably not. But it was just
one of those things that you said, exactly what you said,
it's giving people time. But isn't it funny how giving people
that time is met with suspicion straight away? [Laughs]
Michael Rucker: It is. And one thing that's not talked about
enough, is protecting people's leisure outside of work, right?
Like so, a crux to my academic research was with physicians,
right? And so- but I'll be asked like, "well, how do you make
folks that work at a suicide hotline, you know, have fun?"
And so there are going to be certain professions, where
within that work environment, because of what you signed up
for, fun isn't an appropriate thing to interweave within it.
So in those cases, to be able to ensure that your employees have
fun, then you need to protect their leisure time, right? And
that's something that we just don't talk about enough. Like,
there's been a lot of studies done with regards to what
happens during the lunch hour. And the people that have the
most fun are just the ones that are allowed to choose it. So
ironically, people would, if it's of their own choosing, will
have more fun working through lunch than having lunch with
their boss, because they got to choose, that's what they want to
do. But also these times for renewal so often are like,
'okay, well, we'll just grind it out, right?' Where just that
sort of break from the monotony allows you to come with a much
more joyful sort of spirit when you return. And that's true,
especially here in the States with regards to just taking time
off of work. I'm at, you know, where the average leisure
duration per year is 40 hours, which essentially means you only
took five days off, you know? I mean that's just- we know what
the outcome now is because of all the studies on burnout. So,
you know, that's not necessarily a component while you're in
work, but it is certainly a component of fun and work. And
so, you know, we need to talk about that more too.
Emmy O'Shaughnessy: What is- one of the difficulties we're
finding at the moment, just linked to what you were saying
about how- how do you find or locate a sense of fun if you're
running a suicide hotline? Is it appropriate to ever place that
as a value based within that field or area of focus? Or is it
just about outside time? We want to support accommodation for
young people who are- who are kind of living through complex
trauma. Lots of the million people from the care system,
unaccompanied asylum seekers. And recently we have worked on
our values. And we have brought fun into one of our value
statements, because as a youth charity, we feel like it's
really important that we are placing our attention on that as
a kind of mechanism for healing with young people, for
relationship building, for resilience, and also just that a
lot of children and young people who are having a tough time
don't often get to have a lot of fun. So we've made this really
big shift in our values to bring fun into it. But the- the
resistance that came from within our team was from the team who
are delivering supported accommodation, support to those
young people, because their feedback was "we don't have time
for fun, because we are on the front line". It is so relentless
in terms of the issues and the levels of safeguarding and kind
of complex trauma and the needs. Like it almost felt like an
insulting lack of recognition of how serious and heavy their job
was. So how do we reconcile those, because I don't want to
be naive about this. But I still do believe that fun- a space for
fun can be found in those environments, and actually are
really important as a kind of antidote for lightening some of
the heaviness. I don't have the answers, but I'm curious what
you think.
Michael Rucker: Well- you already brought up some of the
answers, right? It's gonna take time, and it's going to require
listening to what will allow them to build that resilience,
right? I had the same challenges working with a physician group,
because at the time, the CMO was a leader, right? So all I was
doing was providing recommendations, and everything
was additive. And I was- we haven't created the space for
these folks to be able to enjoy any of what we've just
discussed. And, you know, we just didn't have the power
within that wellbeing committee to manipulate the way they spent
their work hours. If you do have any of that I think it's
starting with 'okay, we understand that this is a heavy
work task, and so maybe we don't start there, but how do we
support you outside of, you know, the duty that you've kind
of signed up for, so that you can begin to create that space?'
I find whenever anyone's sort of stuck, it's because there is no
capacity to add things on. We need to start with sort of
figuring out how do we create a little bit more space, so fun
can live? Which is not easy. [Laughs]
Emmy O'Shaughnessy: [Laughs] Yeah, how do we do that, and
meet our contract KPIs? [Laughs]
Michael Rucker: That's right. So I think, again, generally the
most creative ideas do come from the group. You know, it's like,
'okay, we're here to support and we're here to listen. We're not
gonna prescribe right here at the starting line. What could we
do to help?' And then sometimes it's again, and this is a lesson
that I've only learned in the last year as well, sometimes it
has to start at psychological safety. Like I just don't feel
safe right now, not because of the job or what leadership is
doing, but because there's such a heavy toll - okay, let's fix
that first, and then fun can kind of sprout from there. So,
hope that's helpful.
Emmy O'Shaughnessy: Yeah, that's awesome.
Zoe Amar: That's fascinating, and I think that's sort of leads
me to my next question, which is about, what is the value of fun
if there is one? So I think we've touched on some things
around wellbeing and employee motivation, and maybe even some
potential health outcomes, like you were saying, like if people
can get away from work on time, even if they're doing a
tremendously difficult job, then they can go and have fun and
maybe let off some steam somewhere. But is- has there
been any research done, or have you seen anything in your
workplace Emmy around, what's the value of fun?
Michael Rucker: Well, I can say, what the science supports is, if
we now know it sort of builds the building blocks of your
purview, right? And so, we've learned a lot about how the
brain works, especially in the last decade, and it's not
necessarily cause and effect like we thought, it's more
predictive, right? And so once we start to experience more fun
and joy, optimism, just naturally grows, and so we start
to see things in a light that is just a little bit more joyful.
And so there's some equity that happens once you're able to
build that in. And so, you know we're either generally kind of
moving down the you know, hedonic treadmill as it were, or
moving up, and- but there's this equity where we don't understand
what's happening in the moment. We're either enjoying the moment
or the- the moment's sort of bringing us down. And it's the-
that joyfulness over time, that helps build the resilience, and
so that's why we need to protect it. And so that's when it
becomes important, because once you stop finding joy in everyday
life, weird things start to happen. So specifically, in my
own work with physicians, they'll start to lose empathy,
and there's a direct line that correlates between lack of
empathy and patient outcomes. So all of a sudden, you know, now
it's not just affecting the physician, but it's affecting
everyone that they're treating. So it's pretty powerful stuff,
when you start to peel back the empirical data.
Emmy O'Shaughnessy: Yeah, I was just thinking about the piece
around how- how people are able to cope better, and kind of
continuous change, but also how people are able to kind of
sustain themselves when they're trying to advocate for change,
or working in the social justice, and social justice
movements. And one of the people who I've been really influenced
by is Adrienne Maree Brown, who wrote a book called Pleasure
Activism. She's an incredible black activist from the States.
Michael Rucker: It's a great book.
Emmy O'Shaughnessy: Oh my god, it's so good! Just gonna say
everyone go buy and read this book. But I read that during the
pandemic, and it was really- it was really fundamental in terms
of shifting some thinking about the way that I have approached
work in social justice for so long as a kind of focus, but
it's come from a place of like, it's just never enough. You
know, we have to just keep on going and keep on going. And
it's about- and it can be about community and relationships, and
all of the gorgeous things that work- my work in the community
has brought as well, but also it can feel like 'god, are we ever
gonna get there?' And what her book really helped me to think
differently about was how- how approaching social you know
oppression and social injustice from a place of- of thinking
about what feels good for people. Like, where do you draw
your sense of inner power from, or kind of who around you really
lifts you? Why is that? And I suppose taking a really curious
approach to getting to know yourself, and all the things
that bring you a sense of pleasure, or joy, or kind of
fun, or uplift, is kind of the foundation actually for social
justice work. Because you can land on that when things get
really tough and bounce back. I just hadn't thought about it in
that way before. So I think in- in terms of how...I suppose I've
started seeing the value of fun within, you know, the voluntary
sector, and all the different social causes that we're, you
know, lots of us are- are engaged with and passionate
about, we've never really seen fun as a potential kind of tool
for furthering social change. We're a kind of resource for
helping further social change. But I do think it really has
some exciting, 'this is what her book made me think about', like,
wow, it can be like an amazing agent for change, as well as
just like a beautiful thing to experience that brings people
together. But what does it mean kind of politically, is
something I hadn't thought about before I read that book.
Michael Rucker: In my book, I spend a chapter unpacking that
as well. And I think, though, the simple frame right, is that
fun attracts and the levity, you know, sort of repels, and so to
be able to even do that work, if it's not fun at all. There are
folks that sort of have a slant towards martyrdism [martyrdom],
and they'll eventually just burn out, right? And so the smart
ones, the ones that are just crushing it, are the ones that
kind of factor in renewal, because they know the fight will
never end, right? These big causes, they might, you know, be
lucky if they see one or two successes in their lifetime. And
that can be really heavy when you think about it in context,
right? So if you're not enjoying the process along the way, even
though it's this sort of awful thing, there are really, really
poor outcomes. Especially for folks that are in leadership
positions in these places that feel like if they're not working
all the time, that they're failing in some manner. And so
trying to reframe in that way, becomes extremely additive,
right? And so I chose some case studies where, you know, folks
that aren't able to do that, generally abandon the cause,
because why would you want to just feel awful all the time,
right? I don't think it's- it's too much of a trope to say we're
pleasure seeking animals. We know it's way more complex than
that. But we certainly don't want to feel awful all the time.
Yeah.
Paul Thomas: It's one of those things that I feel that we
fairly regularly see through social media is that post that
pops up in your feed that says, "that's it. I've gotta go away
for a bit. I can't do this anymore", because of various
reasons. And it's that pause that people take a move away.
Whereas I think what we're trying to say here is, how do
you support people who end up in that space to just stop them
getting to that point where they just have to walk away from
everything? How do you sustain that on a on a regular basis,
and if you are fighting against huge injustice or whatever, it
must be just physically exhausting. You've got to find
that- that sort of- that level of that thing that brings you
back and grounds you, otherwise you will burn out.
Emmy O'Shaughnessy: Yeah, and I think this is what's missing for
lots of people in organisations, I'm making a massive assumption
here, but based on kind of experience, and people that I
have spoken to and engaged with, is- is the- is the language
around fun, and bringing that into the workplace, and for that
to be normalised and part of the language of organisational
development and leadership. And that's again Mike, that's
another thing I really enjoyed about one of your pieces online
was like, 'well, you actually just need to start by asking
questions that use some of this vocabulary, and see what
happens'. And for it not to be seen as fluff, you know, and the
kind of not serious stuff. And I think that is- that's the kind
of beginning point, just bringing those conversation,
bringing those questions into supervision, into team meetings,
and having open dialogue about what- what it means for people I
think is really important. And the other thing I was just gonna
say about the value of fun is- is around laughter, and I think-
I don't know about how everyone, you know, hear what their
experience was during COVID, but I definitely remember there just
not being as much laughter heard. You know, it was not a-
because we were all so alone, there was probably less of it
just out and about in the supermarket hearing people have
a giggle or whatever. Waiting in the queue and you know, having a
chit chat and making a joke. Those little interactions where
laughter could bubble up, just didn't go on. And I think it's a
really healthy sign, that fun is being kind of encouraged and
cultivated when you're in the office or when you're spending
time with people that people are relaxed enough in their bodies
to be able to laugh, and have that kind of wholehearted- that
wholehearted laugh that is like. You know, it's obviously good
for your health as well it's proven isn't it that laughter is
a really amazing thing for your nervous system and in general?
So I always think when I've- I'm at work, and I'm here, and I
hear people laughing together, like, okay people are feeling
good.
Michael Rucker: Yeah, it's a great way to smash the hierarchy
too, right? And then it's a social cue that there's
something that we're connected to, because we're laughing
together. And John Cleese has some amazing quotes that I won't
try to butcher right now, but I mean you know, essentially how
you know, it's a great tool for democracy, right? Because, you
know, if two people are laughing together, even if they don't
necessarily understand each other, it's, you know, it's a
quick way to connect in a really intimate fashion. I love what
you just said.
Paul Thomas: The example- my family will kill me for this,
but the example it's just brought to mind as we travelled
to the States about four or five years ago, and as English people
entering the States, there was all this sort of nervousness
around 'well they're very vigorous at the border patrol,
you know. The police they're- they're gonna check everything'.
And when we walked through to- through the airport, we came to
the- to the very serious looking policemen in their Boston
uniforms. And the guy we were directed towards looked quite
frightening, to be honest. And as we walked over towards him,
my my youngest son's trousers just fell down. And you could
see this guy just crumple, just absolutely crumpled and his
smile came up and he started laughing his head off. And he
just went, "wait till I tell my wife about what just happened".
And we just had the most brilliant introduction to
bringing your kids into the States all because my child's
trousers fell down. It's that kind of level of- completely
floored someone into 'you're not in a position of power anymore.
You are me. I am you'.
Michael Rucker: Comedy is timing right? [Laughs]
Paul Thomas: [Laughs] Yeah!
Zoe Amar: It really is! And it's like "Hi, we're British. And
we're brilliant at slapstick". [Laughs]
Emmy O'Shaughnessy: Yeah, also there is something about like
this in the workplace anyway. And I find this in organisations
where there's really rigid hierarchy - the jokes happen
kind of at each level, you know. Rather than like, across all
layers of the organisation, which is not comfortable. And
also, you know, this kind of notion that you have to retain a
sense of seriousness and taking yourself seriously in your role
is a signal that you are an expert, or you have a level of
authority. And I've always said, you know, to my team, "I take my
work really seriously. I really try and not take myself
seriously". And I think that is something I try and like hold.
Because it means that you don't take stuff personally, and you
know that we're fluid, messy beings, like just trying our
best. And we're gonna make mistakes, and consistently
disappoint people and ourselves and get up and try again. And I
think that, well I hope that that message kind of gives
people that sense of like, it's okay. And I think fun and
mistake making is actually really important as a link- as a
connector as well. Just like we- we're- we're able to mess up and
it's okay. We can have- unless it's causing serious harm to
somebody, obviously, then that's not funny, but in general in our
work, we can make mistakes and just look at it and hold it with
some lightness and our part in it with a little bit of humility
and space.
Michael Rucker: Yeah, absolutely. I think if a
corporation or workplace is struggling to do that, you know,
then you just set up time where the guidelines are, 'you have
permission'. This is this is our space- you know, generally it
works best if it's a creative endeavour, or you're trying to
be innovative, but like we're safe right now to the break
things. Like the whole game right now is to- because you're
right. I mean it's, you know, fun lives in a space that's not
so outcome focused, right?
Emmy O'Shaughnessy: I love that.
Michael Rucker: It's the outcome mentality, that kind of, you
know, where we bristle right and tense up, because we're so
focused on being right. And so any sort of 'playground' quote
unquote, that allows for, you know, creativity and not
necessarily having to be right, it's fertile ground for having
more fun.
Emmy O'Shaughnessy: I'm enjoying writing notes. That was a great
one.
Michael Rucker: I stole that one from John Cleese as well. He has
an amazing seminar on it, so I'll send it your way. It's-
it's worth an hour.
Zoe Amar: Yeah, I'd be interested to see. And just
before we wrap up, I think there's something so interesting
in what you've both said about how leaders can perhaps not
measure this, but just- just be confident that the workplaces
they're making, the workplace is a bit more fun for people, even
if it's very low level stuff. That still has- makes a massive
difference doesn't it, colleagues coming in and feeling
safe to laugh with each other? Do you have any tips either of
you around, what can leaders do right now to create a bit more
of that sense of joy and fun in the workplace?
Michael Rucker: Well, I love what Emmy brought up, this idea
that when inside jokes are only shared, you know, at certain
hierarchical levels, that's sending a signal like, you know,
that that we're all different. And so figuring out ways to sort
of be inclusive, and that really, that you need to lead by
example. So a lot of times it's creating experiences that aren't
necessarily department dependent, you know, that, you
know. And then again, I would go back only because it's important
and not talked about enough, that there's signals that we're
going to protect your leisure outside of work, too. And again,
I'm at the truth be told it is a win win, like Emmy touched on
with regards to Google, is that if you provide those types of
experiences, one, people live a more joyful life, but it also
allows them to bring them- their best selves to work. And so to
answer your question, specifically, it is, one,
leading by example, so everyone feels safe. It doesn't feel like
there are these sort of guardrails against, you know,
'I'm only gonna let my guard down here'. And it definitely
takes time. Again, easier said than done, because psychological
safety takes time, and why a lot of this kind of feels heavier
than it should is, we do- we can't really be 100% our
authentic selves, right? There's probably aspects that really
aren't supposed to be shared, you know, because they might-
they might make somebody else not feel safe, right? So you
sort of need to figure out, you know, if you look at it as a
venn diagram, what is that sweet spot where everyone is enjoying
themselves and everyone's having fun? And unfortunately, the
burden falls on leadership to find that, but that's the work,
right? And then the second, again, is, how do you create the
environment and the space if it can't happen within the
workplace outside of the work, so that people just feel that
they're living a fun life, because they're enabled by the
folks that they work with? Because really, if you think
about it, the majority for most of us in the working world is at
work, so it- there is sort of a requirement from leadership to
protect the space outside of work. Because if they don't,
especially in the, you know, information age that we live in,
if you're still answering emails, you know, right when you
get home, your kids see you on your phone as you walk in,
because you're still finishing up a meeting, and then you
essentially plop down on the couch and are just answering
emails until you essentially go to sleep - that's an extension
of work. That's not leisure. And so that's where those, you know,
if you- in the EU, they're doing a lot better job here than in
the US. But, you know, some companies go as far as shutting
down the email servers at 5pm on a Friday, so that there's no
expectation that emails are answered on the weekend. So it's
that kind of stuff, where leaders can really make an
impact.
Zoe Amar: That's really great, Mike. I love that focus on-
because I think that work life balance is so often talked
about, as a sort of individual responsibility. But actually,
what I love there is you said, leaders have got some
responsibility here, you know, to really protect that time,
because particularly in the charity sector, I work with so
many amazing, really conscientious people who will do
those extra hours because they're so passionate about the
cause. But with leaders really saying "no, look, you know. Go
home. Go and rest. Go and be with your family", I think
that's a real act of caring, isn't it?
Michael Rucker: Absolutely.
Emmy O'Shaughnessy: I've gotta-
Paul Thomas: Michael Wilkinson in our last episode, where- the
RNID where- creating those- or having a- getting rid of office
hours, for example, so people can fit what they want to do
around the work that they deliver. I think that that
really helps too. Being able to go for that run, because you
know that you have the the ability to work afterwards.
Sorry Emmy.
Zoe Amar: I know Emmy's got to go off and do the school run in
a moment. Sorry, go for it!
Emmy O'Shaughnessy: No that's alright, I was just saying,
actually when Mike was describing parents coming home
from working, I was like wanting to hide under my thing. And I
think it's like really important to say that we've got you know-
I personally have got a way to go. I've done a good- a good
piece of work on myself in terms of just learning my own language
of what it means to have fun in my life and with the people that
I love and care about. And it's- I feel like we're quite early in
that journey in my organisation. But I do know that joy is
something that has always been really important throughout my
work with communities. And, you know, theatre applied theatre
was an amazing mechanism, because the ways that you build
theatre together was just pure play, loads and loads of games,
lots of stepping outside of roles, experimentation, failing
safely, improvising. You know, all of those ingredients, that I
think are really important to having fun, which I would love
to bring more into my- into the role that I do now. But I think
in terms of- in terms of tips, I do think it's- a starting place
is to be able to make it familiar- a familiar
conversation to be having, like a dialogue. I think that's what
you were- you were saying Mike earlier, just kind of inviting
dialogue. And then at leadership level, and this is where, you
know, we absolutely have work to do in my organisation, because
we're a frontline organisation. And young people have had such a
tough two years and the need for our charity to- to meet those-
meet those young people where they're at has been really full
on and lots of people across the sector are knackered and burnt
out. And it feels like a big change is needed from leaders in
the third sector to say actually, like, "we're not gonna
be martyrs about what our- in how we work and how we carry out
our roles. We are really gonna stand in this value of
protecting time for leisure, breaks, human connection -
that's all really important just because it's important, not for
any other reason". But I also was gonna say that, I think the
flexible hours approach is really important because people
you know might have a class that they can go to in the week- in
the weekday at lunchtime because they have kids in the evening
and they can't get childcare. So if work can support them to go
and do a class, or pick up a hobby that's at a different time
that enables them to go, that's awesome. And I think that's
really conducive to people maintaining, like a better work
life balance in general. But the thing that's come back over and
over again, when we've run feedback with the staff team is
the time. It's like, we just want time to be together. And
when I've asked various people what their definition of fun is,
in my team, everyone has connected it to spontaneity,
right? The kind of idea around spontaneous moments of human
connection. It's always about relationships. And it's always
about like, not forced fun, but just how we build that sense of
like a relaxed state where we can have spontaneous moments of
lightness and humour. I remember last year, when my son was- he
had to come into work with me, and I had meetings and my team
were amazing. They were hanging out with him. And I just stopped
my meeting early and said, "let's all go to the park", we
have a big park outside, I was like, "does anyone want to
come?", the whole- [Laughs] just came out with me. Everyone was
just running around the playground. You know, I wasn't
like, "my child is coming in today. And we're all gonna go to
the playground together and go down the slide". It was just in
that moment, I looked around, and I thought 'they're being
awesome with my son. It's a beautiful day, why don't we just
step out. Anyone's welcome'. And it's just like, immediately that
spontaneity, and that invitation, gives people that
permission just to like, let go, and go into the flow of it. So I
thought that was a good memory of like, we had lots of fun. It
was not planned. But it was also absolutely about us being
together and- and being empathetic about the different
needs that were going on for my son, me being a working mom, my
team being distracted. [Laughs] Like, just drop all of it, and
go and run around.
Michael Rucker: That's the best. I love that. [Laughs]
Paul Thomas: That's a great idea. Great idea. Well look,
thank you! I think that we need to wrap up because, you know, we
have school runs to get to, but thank you for that. I think,
just to hear different words, you know, we've talked about
fun, we've talked about laughter, we've talked about
joy, all of these things are things that people might find
easier to connect with sometimes than 'fun'; fun work doesn't
necessarily go hand in hand, but I really connect with that idea,
today of joy. If what you're doing doesn't bring joy,
eventually, then, you know, perhaps it's time to- to have a
look elsewhere and think about other things. But thank you very
much. I think the top tip I'd take away for leaders is that
time, it's giving people time. And not- not of wanting to go
and then fill that time with anything specific. It's you
know, it's fine sometimes to just bring in some coffee and
cake and then just say sit and chat to each other and chill or
go to the park as Emmy's just experienced. So thank you very
much for for coming on. Mike, when's your book out?
Michael Rucker: In the UK, it's the end of January. In the US,
it's January 3rd.
Paul Thomas: So what we will try and do around the time is
remember that it's out and do a competition so that people can
get hold of a copy of it. I'm sure there's four new customers-
or three new customers, sorry, on this - I can't do the maths -
three new customers on this call. So you'll- you'll have at
least three copies sold in the UK-
Michael Rucker: Ah, thank you so much.
Emmy O'Shaughnessy: Definitely.
Paul Thomas: -and to some more.
Zoe Amar: Thank you so much to Emmy and Michael for joining us.
I learned lots from that episode, and I'd love to hear
what everyone else thinks of it too.
Paul Thomas: And Zoe do we need to book an away day at the fun
location in Hartfordshire? I can think of quite a few without
having to go anywhere near an escape room.
Zoe Amar: Well you can come over to my house and I'll make some
cake and a nice lunch like I normally do. That for me is fun.
I hope it's fun for you sometimes.
Paul Thomas: [Laughs] It's massively fun. And I think the-
the point you made just before the interview, you said about
being an introvert and I think I've been exploring where I sit
on that scale recently, and I think it's that- that exact same
thing. I think a- good company, cooking, listening to music,
geeking out, all of that stuff is exceptionally fun to me. So I
think we're very much in the same boat. Thank you very much
for listening to this episode. You can find us on Twitter,
we're at @startsatthetop1 and you can also email us at
startsatthetop@gmail.com.
Zoe Amar: And if you listen to us on Apple podcasts or anywhere
else where you get your podcasts, please do take a
moment to rate, review, and subscribe. It all helps with our
visibility and reach. And we'll speak to you again in a couple
of weeks.
Paul Thomas: Speak to you soon.
Zoe Amar: Bye!