Tree Hall: A work in progress, I think would be how I feel now.
There's a real liberation in understanding that the way I
perceive the world and I engage with it isn't faulty or broken.
It's just different.
Paul Thomas: Welcome to a brand new episode of Starts at the
Top, our podcast about digital leadership and change. I'm Paul
Thomas.
Zoe Amar: And I'm Zoe Amar. On today's episode, we have a big
treat for you. Our conversation with Tree Hall who is the CEO of
charity IT leaders.
Paul Thomas: However, it's not Trees passion for supporting
charities and nonprofits and getting the best from their tech
that we talked to Tree about. Tree is also openly and proudly
autistic, having been diagnosed at the age of 47. It is this
diagnosis, and Trees experience of being a neurodivergent leader
that we tap into on this episode. And her openness and
honesty on the subject makes for such warmly compelling listen.
Zoe Amar: It was such a great conversation. Tree is an
inspiration and we loved every minute of our conversation with
her.
Paul Thomas: And, Tree is a fellow Arsenal fan, which makes
this episode even better. And to 10% on top. It was a cold week
and I wore my Arsenal scarf on several zoom calls that week, I
think I'll do that more often because it's a great icebreaker
and she came out as a fellow Arsenal fan. So welcome to Tree.
But Zoe, it's February the weather is warming up. The scarf
is coming off. daylight hours are getting longer. We got
through January, woohoo! How was it for you?
Zoe Amar: No bad actually, very busy looking ahead to an
exciting 2023/2024. So yeah, not too bad so far. How about you?
Paul Thomas: It did get cold there for a while didn't it. I
didn't think the ice would ever disappear. We had snow in
December so I'm kind of pleased to see the sun out. And me and
my 11 year old on the walk to school checking out the signs of
spring, there are snow drops, there are daffodils coming up
through the grass. So it's it's all good. We're getting there.
And we've been discussing a couple of stories behind the
scenes. Zoe there's been a number of articles online about
over 50s in the workplace. And we believe there's probably a
role for leaders to play in making sure that this
demographic doesn't get neglected, especially when it
comes to digital.
Zoe Amar: 100%. So, we're recording today, on a Monday,
after Jeremy Hunt announced on Friday that there were almost
300,000 fewer people in jobs than before the pandemic. He's
encouraging people who retired early after the pandemic who are
in those older demographics to come back to the office. And
this article from the BBC, which we will post in the show notes,
talks about what's really going on there behind the scenes. So
how there are still challenges with people who are in older
demographics being hired by organisations. And obviously
that is perhaps a bit of a challenge in digital because do
you think we have a cult of youth in digital Paul is what
I'm trying to say here?
Paul Thomas: Well, talking for somebody that is, you know, not
quite there yet, but will be on the way to that, that that
demographic. Yeah, probably we do. I think about the most of
the organisations I work with, and when I'm introduced to
teams, they are in a lot of cases much younger, especially
on the delivery side, when it comes to things like social
media management and oversight and things like that. There's
definitely a younger demographic at play. So yeah, perhaps we are
and I think that's probably borne out by the channels and an
increasingly difficult place, social media in particular for
the over 50s to play in. You know, Facebook's getting a bad
rep for being the place where your mum and dad are. And if you
are like us the mums and dads you know. Yeah, I think it is
probably a tricky playground for for those people that are
getting on in age a bit. What do you think?
Zoe Amar: It's the number one thing I hear a lot when I go
into organisations actually people say, oh, I am too old to
do this. And I was countered that by saying anyone can do
digital at any age. And what we do need I think to really make
digital sustainable in the long term is sure we need the 25 year
olds who are amazing at TikTok, and we need the older people who
are seasoned they've been in the workplace for ages, they're
brilliant at managing risk. We need both of those groups. We
need them to come together, we need them to work together and
we need them to recognise each other's value. And I do think
that in this wider move of getting older people back into
the workplace, we need to acknowledge that, particularly
because it speaks to some of the things we're going to be talking
about in the next news story, which is around working from
home versus working in the office.
Paul Thomas: Yeah. And I think, you know, going back to the
Zoe Amar: Yeah, and I think one thing that employers will need
teams that we've we've all worked with, I think what I've
really valued from the young people in the team is the, the
to be aware of, especially in a digital context is that 50 now
ideas, you know, this is how I use TikTok in my personal life.
And could we do something similar with, with the with the
business or charity you're working with so lots of ideas
coming through, and that is really, really helpful, because
those are some things, some things that you just don't spot,
because maybe you're not using these channels as widely as they
are. But I think the one thing that you can't replace easily
with youth, is that sort of more strategic long term view, and
often it's the sort of the Okay, yeah, that's a great idea, but
does look very different doesn't say, I mean, I know people who
how are we going to put that in the mix with all of these other
things that we need to do. And also a lot of organisations I
think, miss the fact that the over 50s is a huge demographic,
in terms of their audience, whether it's for fundraising,
whether it's for, you know, you might be working for an up and
coming tech firm, but if the vast majority of your audience
is shared between a range of demographics, including older
people who do still need to use these tools and use this
technology, then having people that understand and have empathy
with that that demographic, in your mix in your in your team,
is probably well worth having. So I think it's always going to
be a balance, but I think it's it's probably one that most
organisations probably have work to do on, we focused on other
areas of diversity, and inclusion, but perhaps this is
another one that needs to be added into the mix.
are coming up to 50, who've got really small children, and I
know people in their 50s who are on their second marriages and
having a second wave of have children. You know and people
going off to work in startups, I was reading about a startup, a
tech startup at the weekend, where they've got people in
their 50s and 60s, as well as younger employees. So I think, I
think that any initiative, whether it's government led, or
within any organisation, where you are actively trying to get
older people into the workplace has got to be based on that
understanding of what those older demographics look like,
and what they need and how it might be very different, even 10
years previously.
Paul Thomas: Exactly, exactly. And you know, I'll bang that
drum, I am a big kid at heart. You know, when I think about
where my parents were, perhaps at 50, and where I will be,
yeah, didn't see my dad playing on the Xbox too often, there are
tropes of tropes of my younger self that I will never give up,
never give up art all. And the second story we wanted to talk
about was, as you mentioned, you know, this this age old issue
of... every time you send something through about this, my
blood boils. And I think, oh, here we go another, possibly,
you know, possibly misdirected person talking about the role of
the office. But this was a response to a tweet you put out
about Tony Dunk, who's Director General of the CBI and about
comments he made about CEOs that he was talking to wanting to see
employees back in offices.
Zoe Amar: Exactly. Yeah. And I tweeted this as a bit of a
throwaway thing just resharing the story and got a real range
of responses back. So essentially, Tony Dunk was
saying that bosses secretly want all of their staff to return to
work in offices. And I put this out there on Twitter, just
trying to canvass of opinion from charities to find out, is
this not the case in charities because I'm largely hearing that
flexible working has really embedded across the sector, not
everywhere, but in quite a few places, or whether there are
indeed, some charities who are focusing more on gradually going
back more to the office. And I got some really mixed responses,
all of them interesting all of them useful. Some organisations
that have totally gone remote, some who are getting really
comfortable with hybrid now and then others where people want to
go back to the office, they're enjoying it, they need to be
with other people, or they have to because of the nature of
their online roles. So again, I think this takes us back to,
there isn't a cookie cutter approach to this stuff. It's
different for everyone. It depends on your organization's
needs. It depends on your employees, individual needs,
what isn't helpful are people like Tony Dunk rocking up and
saying, look, it's got to be like this, and this is the best
way to do it.
Paul Thomas: Yeah, It does smack of he's had a couple of
conversations with a couple of leaders who said it would be
nice, he's making a general sweeping statement that doesn't
seem to be the reality for the people that we're necessarily
coming in, in touch with. And I think one comment in particular
stood out for me on your on your thread, which was that Nicola
Upton
Zoe Amar: yeah Nicola
Paul Thomas: Nicola Upton who came back to you and said that
she talks of it as I think of it as human centred flexible
Zoe Amar: Yeah, I think you're exactly right about that. And
working and I think going back to the story we've just been
discussing, everybody has different needs at different
times in their lives and this opportunity that we have. And I
think we have to look at it as an opportunity after COVID and
after everything sort of shifted on its axis. It's an opportunity
to reinvent the world of work and there seems to be a great
big proportion of people who don't want to reinvent work,
want work to be the same way that it's always been. And I
like this idea of making it human centred, so that you think
about the individual and their role, the way that they want to
be the balance between their home life and their work life,
how they fit other things around, there was an example
with the the over 50s, for example, around caring for
elderly, elderly, relatives, elderly parents, and things like
that. How do you fit all this into the world of work, it
certainly doesn't work if your world looks like getting on a
train at seven o'clock in the morning to get to London or
another big city, working from nine to five, Monday to Friday
and getting back to that that sort of old way of working.
Perhaps this is a sort of a world of people that just you
know, are hanging on by their fingertips to their offices,
they want that corner office, as we discussed, you know, the, the
Mad Men style, you know, this is the way I've built my career,
and I've got up to the corner office, and I'm going to hang on
to it with everything I've got, perhaps that's what we're
looking at, as you said, people in leadership positions like
this coming out with sort of sweeping generalisations without
having done a simple piece of research, which you've done
through your tweet. Doesn't make any sense to me at all.
we'll put the link to my tweet in the show notes just so you
can see the variety of things people are doing, and how
they're responding. And big shout out to Nicola, do keep an
eye on what she's saying about this stuff. I interviewed her
for a third sector piece, I think it was last year who she
was saying some really interesting things about
continuously adapting hybrid working for different people on
the team depending on their needs and how she was doing that
was fascinating. So keep an eye on her. She is fantastic.
Paul Thomas: Right? And one person who had a really clear
view on certain elements of remote working and how that was
useful to her was Tree Hall, who will now go to our interview
with, with Tree.
Zoe Amar: We are very excited to welcome Tree Hall to Starts at
the Top. Tree Hall is CEO a charity IT leaders and is
passionate about supporting charities and not for profits in
leveraging the best from their tech, IT and digital, and
putting people at the heart of it. She's also openly and
proudly autistic, and was diagnosed at the age of 47. Both
of her children are autistic, which can make work and home a
difficult balancing act. As she explores what Autism means to
her, and how autism has shaped her life. She is committed to
increasing knowledge and understanding of autism and
other neurodivergets. And making the workplace a more welcoming
and supportive place taught neurodivergent individuals.
Tree, thank you so much for joining us today. Welcome to
Starts at the Top.
Tree Hall: Thank you. Great to be here, Zoe & Paul, thank you
for inviting me.
Zoe Amar: So we're so happy to have you here. And one of the
reasons I am absolutely delighted to have you as a guest
here today is having known you for some years and always
enjoyed our conversations, I feel like there's an emerging
strand what you're doing where you're a CEO, as well as an
activist, and you've obviously been sharing these fantastic,
really insightful posts on LinkedIn and you've talked very
openly about your experience as a leader with autism, just about
your journey. And I think they've been really eye opening
and so helpful for lots of people. So I was wondering if we
could start there if we could hear a bit more about your story
and how that began for you.
Tree Hall: Yeah, thank you. That's really kind of you to say
that Zoe. I think my journey in terms of neurodivergent started
with my children, I'm like an awful lot of adults in that my
personal autism diagnosis came very late in life. Both of my
children are autistic and they are experiencing quite
significant challenges through education as a result of their
autism and the supports that they need. But it was through
finding out about how autism presents for them, and what tend
to be called male presentations and female presentations of
autism, that I started to think that I might be autistic. And I
mean, I've done a lot of reading about this. The reason I laugh
about this is because when I first talked to my husband about
it, I said to him that I thought I might be autistic, and was
expecting him to say, no, well, you're just seeing autism
everywhere, because you've been reading about it. So I spoke to
him about it and said, I think I might be, you know, there are
all these traits and kind of things that are resonating. And
he just looked at me and said, Well, yeah, of course you are.
And he'd obviously picked up on that, I was completely taken
aback and asked him why he hadn't said anything. And he
said, but it doesn't matter. It's just you, it's just autism,
which was lovely to hear. But then when he went on and said,
it's just labels and boxes, but you know, me, I love labels. And
that's, that's something for me, which I think is an autistic
trait that I need, I need definitions, I need those
labels, I find them very helpful, because they helped me
to understand me, and how I interact with the world, and how
that interaction can be different for people whose
brains don't work in the way that mine does. And I think of
it as a different operating system. So that's really where
I've, where I've come at this from is from the perspective of
firstly, as a parent of autistic children, but now also as
knowing that I'm an autistic adult as well. And I see the
challenges that my children are going through, I can recall very
clearly how difficult I found school and social interactions.
And I just want to do my bit, I suppose to try and be visibly
autistic in the workplace. But to try and make life a bit
easier for the people who are coming up, you know who are
younger than me, you know the generations following me.
Zoe Amar: And that's why I think it's so exciting about the
activism side of things that you're out there doing, if I can
call it that, because you're really owning it, and owning it
really proudly, and that feels really liberating.
Tree Hall: It is liberating, I suppose what I'm doing almost
is, I'm unpeeling, my 47 years of masking and the layers that
I've built up, before I realised I was autistic. And the way that
I sort of tried to create a persona that felt normal in
inverted commas and that felt as if it was a persona that other
people could engage with. I'm peeling those onion layers back.
And it feels in a way quite helpful to do that publicly.
Because, as I said earlier, lots of adults who are autistic are
not diagnosed, or are only starting their journey to
considering diagnosis. And I think seeing how other people
have dealt with that can be quite helpful and reassuring
because there's so much misinformation about autism,
there are still so many negative perceptions about what it means
to be autistic, that that diagnosis or that realisation
that you might be autistic can be quite frightening. And in
some ways, it is because there are all of those, those
different bits of baggage that come with it potentially. But
actually, I found it to be the most positive thing that's
happened to me is realising that I'm autistic and getting that
diagnosis. And it's been a huge, a huge weight off my shoulders,
really. And it's changed the way that I look back on my life and
the way that I see myself. And I don't see a series of deficits
and negatives in the same way that I did. I just see a
difference now. And that's hugely empowering.
Zoe Amar: And that's really exciting in itself isn't it I
mean how do you feel now?
Tree Hall: Um, a work in progress, I think would be how I
feel now. There's a real liberation in understanding that
the way I perceive the world and I engage with it isn't faulty or
broken. It's just different. And there's a real liberation in
being able to look after myself better because I understand why
I'm motivated or need to do certain things. So a really
clear example of that, for me is in social situations, even with
groups of people that I love dearly that I know very well
that I'm comfortable with. If I'm at, say, a party with them,
there will come a point in that party where I just need to go
off for half an hour and be by myself. And throughout my life,
I'd felt like somehow that was really wrong. Why would I not
want to be in that space with those people all the time, why
did I need to go off and have this alone time and it has to be
alone, I have to be on my own. And it was only with
understanding more about myself and how autism presents for me
that I realised I just get overloaded. And I get overloaded
with the sensory input, I get overloaded with the
conversations. I know it's a bit of an autistic trope, but I get
overloaded with eye contact as well. Eye contact for me is
something that is physically painful. It hurts to make eye
contact, not here on a screen, because there's a screen between
us. But if I was in a meeting, or in a conversation, an awful
lot of my focus and attention is on am I making enough eye
contact? Am I making the right kind of eye contact? Am I
staring? Am I somehow making people feel uncomfortable,
because I'm making too much eye contact, and things like that
are exhausting. So I just reach a point in social situations
where I need to take a break from that and be able to go off,
reset, just have a bit of time where I can clear my head of all
of that. And then I'm happy to go back. But the difference for
me now is that I understand why I need to do that. And it's
okay. So I give myself permission to do that. And it's
much healthier for me, much healthier.
Paul Thomas: Instead you felt, you feel now that you know
you're not broken, you're not faulty. Previously, before your
diagnosis, is it that same sense of I don't quite know why these
things, why I feel this way why these things are happening to me
and just dealing with those, it's been a liberation of sorts.
Tree Hall: It's yeah, it's definitely been a liberation. I
mean, that's, that's the only word I can think of really, I
recall very clearly from childhood and school feeling
slightly like the odd one out, and I could never quite work out
why. And you know, I am 47 I'll be 48 In a few weeks. I'm not,
I'm very open about my age as well, maybe that's an autistic
thing. I just don't have filters in that sense. But I remember
clearly from childhood, that I was academically very able, I
loved schoolwork, I loved learning and getting good marks.
It was again physically painful to think about breaking the
rules and not being well behaved. And there's, you know,
there's a lot of stigma that comes with that in the
classroom. So I got an awful lot of labels, like teachers, pets,
that sort of thing. And I just never quite felt that I was part
of the group in the way that other people were. And not
knowing why that was, as a child, you tend to internalise
that and think that it's somehow you, it's your fault. And that
feeling never went away as I grew up, became a teenager
became a young adult became an adult and so on. There was just
always this feeling of everybody else is doing it and gets it so
why can't I? And you do tend to blame yourself for that and
think that it's you that's at fault somehow. And being able to
recognise those traits in myself as just being part of the way my
brain works, it's enabled me to forgive myself. And that may
sound really silly, because why on earth would you blame
yourself for the way that you you are in the world, but when
everybody else seems to be part of something, and they get all
the unwritten and the unspoken communications and, and all of
this sort of implied contracts in the way that people engage
with each other. When you don't understand that and you feel
outside of it, and yet everyone else seems to get it, you do
blame yourself. And I think that's something that I've found
in conversation with other late diagnosed Autistics. That is,
that's a real commonality that we do tend to blame ourselves.
And we do tend to put that pressure and onus for fitting in
onto ourselves. And when we can't do that, it must be
something to do with us. So that feeling of deficiency, and
always having to try and compensate for it, and work
harder to fit in and achieve and to appear normal, whatever
normal is. That's a huge pressure and it's exhausting.
And I think it's why so many adult autistics go through
periods of autistic breakdown, which can be exhausting and just
destroying socially, mentally, physically. It that kind of a
total overwhelm and overload of years of trying to fit in and
mask. Suddenly, you just reach a point where you don't have the
capacity to do that anymore. And that's that's really hard to see
people go through that.
Paul Thomas: I mean, obviously, you've got you've got two
children and your husband, did they you know sort of identift
that in you or seem to identify that? And does it make it easier
for you to identify it in other people? Can you start to see
those traits coming through? Is it sort of able to give you a
warning sign, or not a warning sign, Does it sort of, yeah just
help you to help others that might be feeling in the same
way? Is it easier to spot?
Tree Hall: I certainly think, I think Autistics... again, I
mean, there's, there's a kind of a bit of a truism about autism
that if you've met one autistic, you've met one autistic. You
know, there are traits and personality types that you see
more consistently in autistic communities. But we are all
different. And we all have different ways of being, and
feeling and processing. But there are certain things that
now that I understand more about autism, I do see in other
people, and I just think, yeah, I think you might be autistic.
But I would never say that to anybody, unless they came and
talked to me about autism and said that they were, you know,
questioning that about themselves? Because I think if
you're not, if you're not in that headspace of wondering,
then for somebody to just say, Well I think you might be, that
could be really, you know, kind of disabling in a way because it
almost pulls the rug of your reality and your place in the
world out from underneath you. So I do see it, I think, I think
I probably communicate more naturally and easily with other
autistic or neurodivergent adults, because we, you know, we
do have a more communal way of engaging and seeing and
perceiving. So I do, yeah, I do see it. And I think the
prevalence of autism is considerably higher than we
realise. There's a hugely high level of under diagnosis in
people of my age group. And I think that's because, you know,
obviously, in the sort of decades since I was at school,
the knowledge and understanding about autism has increased. And
so it is easier now for people to get a diagnosis in childhood,
easier than it was, still not easy by any stretch of the
imagination. But I think there were a lot of people like me,
particularly girls who were missed, and who weren't
diagnosed. And that, unfortunately, girls still tend
to have a higher level of under diagnosis than boys do. There is
a perception of autism, which is about that what's called a male
presentation. And I don't like using terms like male and female
because I don't like genderising things like that. But there is,
the current diagnostics tend to look for the way that more boys
present than girls present. And very often, when girls are
diagnosed as autistic, it tends to happen in their teens, it
tends to happen when they go to secondary school, and it becomes
harder to mask and to pretend and to fit in. Girls are far
better at mimicking social interaction than boys are. So I
was a kind of, if you like typical autistic female at
school, in that I was bright, I was well behaved I fitted in,
there was no concern about me from an academic perspective. I
was probably quieter than most of my peers. I was slightly on
the outside of the friendship groups. But there were no real
red flags, there was nothing that anybody would have have
looked at and said, We need to be supporting this child. And,
sadly, although things have got better in terms of autistic
diagnosis, that is still very much the case for girls at
school today is that they tend to be overlooked in in that
recognition that they might need support and help. I feel like
I'm pinballing all over the conversations here, pull me back
in if I'm disappearing off down a rabbit hole as I am one to do.
Zoe Amar: Pinballing is brilliant. And that's what these
conversations are all about. And if we wind forward into the
present day and your experience as a neurodivergent leader,
what's that been like for you? Tough?
Tree Hall: That's a really difficult question for me to
answer in a way because I think I've always been a
neurodivergent leader. It's not that I suddenly become autistic.
I have always been autistic. The differences that for the last, I
mean, I suppose I started to question about two years ago,
whether I was autistic, I got the diagnosis at the beginning
of last year. So it's only in the last couple of years that
I've known that I'm a neurodivergent leader. The thing
that is really different for me now is that I can understand why
I've struggled at work at certain times. And again, I've
not had a kind of chequered career history by any stretch of
the imagination. I've always done very well at work, I've
never had difficulties getting on with people, or certainly not
on the surface. Forging those deeper relationships at work,
being able to function in busy open plan, offices, all of those
things that you have to do in the workplace. I've struggled
with those, but I've internalised those struggles
very much. Because, again, it's like being at school, you don't
want to stand out from the crowd. Everybody else is getting
along with this and thriving in open plan and noise and people
bring you lunch into the desks and all that sort of thing. You
just you don't want to stand out from the crowd and make a fuss
about that. So the difference for me now is knowing what I
know about myself knowing the things that I found particularly
different and difficult throughout work. And so I just
want to be able to verbalise those difficulties so that
people who are perhaps having challenges in those areas
recognise that it's okay for that to be difficult. Equally on
the flip side of that, I want people who are neurotypical to
understand how disabling some of those challenges can be, and to
start thinking about how to create workplaces which are more
inclusive and supportive for neurodivergent individuals. And
it's probably worth saying actually, that neurodivergence
is is a really broad umbrella term. And it can include,
obviously, autism, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia sensory
processing disorder, executive dysfunction, as you know,
there's there's a whole gamut of different neurological
conditions, if you like, that fall under that umbrella that
can make it very difficult for people to thrive in the
environments that most people find it perfectly okay to work
in. So I hated open plan offices hated them, because they were so
noisy, people could come up and talk to me from all different
directions. And I found that really hard to work with, people
would sit at their desk and eat lunch, and the smells from that
would be really distracting. I think now it's, it's seen as
more acceptable to be able to wear headphones at work or, or
earbuds or whatever. And so you can block out some of the noise.
But those really open workplaces, and we do seem to
have a lot of open plan workplaces now, are not great
for neurodivergent individuals. So making some changes, is
really helpful. Having quiet spaces where people can go and
work being really open about the fact that if you need to put
headphones on or sit with your earbuds in, that's okay,
encouraging people to not eat at their desk, which let's be
honest, none of us should be doing because we should all be
going and taking a proper break away from our laptops and what
have you. But just being aware of those things and open to
them. And if somebody comes to you and says I'm struggling, I
need this accommodation, believe them. That's a really key thing
as a leader is you just have to believe people and not be asking
necessarily for proof because a lot of autistic adults are self
diagnosed. That's another challenge that that we face. The
route to diagnosis as an adult can be years long. And services
in the UK for autistic adults are at a massive stretch,
incredibly under resourced for the number of people needing to
access them. So a lot of the time, autistic adults are having
to kind of navigate their own way through a try and understand
themselves and the challenges that they face and find
solutions for themselves. And I think that's one of the reasons
why so few autistic adults are actually in work. The most
recent statistics say that 22% of autistic adults are employed
22% I mean, that's, that's, that's incredibly low. And yet,
we, as a community of people, we have a huge amount to offer. And
that diversity of thought in the workplace is so so important for
finding solutions to things, finding creative ways forward
and just for having higher performing better performing
teams. So yeah, again, I feel like I've sort of wandered
around your your question I hope I've answered what what you were
actually asking.
Zoe Amar: That's so important Tree that you've raised that and
that was not a wonder I think that it's vitally important to
get this issue on employers radars because 22%, I mean,
there's swathes of talented people who have these incredible
insights and most importantly, different perspectives to share
to enrich the workplace. And the outcomes that we should all be
working towards. Employees are really missing out there aren't
they.
Tree Hall: I think so.
Paul Thomas: Just add to that, you said earlier on about, you
know, it's a different operating system. That's what you feel
that you have. And that's what can be brought to the table. And
as Zoe says, that's, you know, all the organisations, all the
leaders, we've talked about diversity of thought and
diversity, inclusion, all those sorts of things. That's what
they're looking for, it's who can bring a different
perspective to this, who can bring a different operating
system, who's got those those skills that we need, and
there's, there's a group of people there, huge group of
people there, that could bring that perspective and could bring
that insight and can bring that real lived experience.
Tree Hall: There is, but I have to be honest, if you as an
employer, want to create a workplace, which is supportive
and inclusive and accessible for neurodivergent individuals,
there is a bit of effort needed on your part, you know, because
some of those changes have got to be made, and they require
cultural change. And I think that's, that's something that
ties in with our society's attitude broadly to disability,
there seems to be almost a reluctance to talk about
disability, whether that's physical, or whether it's the
disability that comes from being neurodivergent. And actually,
that conversation is made even harder, because if you take the
Autistic community, for instance, there's a huge range
of thought about whether or not autism is a disability, and
whether being autistic means you are disabled. Now, my view on
this has changed quite considerably from when I was
first diagnosed, I was really, really vehement almost that I
was not disabled because of autism. And yet there are other
people who are equally vehement that they are disabled by
autism. As I say, my perspective on this has changed. I think it
depends whether you subscribe to a medical model of autism, or
whether you subscribe to a social model of autism, the
medical model is based around deficit, and it's based around
disorder, you know, it's ASD, Autistic Spectrum Disorder, I
don't think I'm disordered. I don't think I need to be cured,
I don't think I don't want to a treatment for autism. And even
saying that, that is coming from a place of privilege, because
the way that autism impacts me, doesn't prevent me from living
independently having a job. Having children having a family,
there are people for whom autism has a much more profound impact
on their lives, and they're not able to live independently,
they're not able to work, they might never have a family or
those kinds of intimate relationships. So I think we
have to be respectful of the fact that people's lived
experience of autism and neurodivergence is different. We
engage with it differently, it impacts us differently. And we
have to be open about having those conversations that you
know, while I hate functioning labels (so functioning labels
are where we talk about high functioning Autistics or low
functioning Autistics), I would be classed as a high functioning
autistic, because I've got a senior job, I've got a house,
I've got a family, I live independently, I'm married, you
know, to all intents and purposes, I function at a high
level. Then you've got what are called Low Functioning
Autistics, and that's people who perhaps need 24 hour care who
are never going to be an employment who might never have
an intimate relationship, as I said, but those labels are
incredibly damaging, because as soon as you label someone as low
functioning, you immediately invalidate and undermine the
skills and qualities and strengths that they have. As
soon as you label me high functioning, you are ignoring
all the challenges that I face in life and the difficulties
that I have to go through. You know, we have to move away from
that language, because it's incredibly damaging to the
entire community. And I forgotten where I was going with
that now. This is sorry, this is an autistic trait of mine is
that I'll get so passionate into a line of conversation that I
forget where I was actually going with it. I think I was
talking about disability and society. That's right and in the
workplace, the effort that's needed by employers to make our
work places more accessible. So I think we have to recognise
that as neurodivergent adults, we do need certain supports,
accommodations, we need certain changes in the workplace to
enable us to thrive. So we don't come without our own baggage.
But as a resource, yes, you know, many of us are highly
skilled, got really creative ways of thinking and seeing and
doing. And just being part of a more diverse team means that we
can create something richer, you know, and come up with problems
from a new perspective. So, with that in mind, something that I
did want to talk about is as a neurodivergent, adult in the
workplace, something that I think employers really need to
be aware of is that if you have a neurodivergent employee, and
they have children, the chances are pretty high, that one or
more of those children will also be neurodivergent. And that
means a real challenge potentially, for managing work
and life and achieving that balance. I'm quite happy to be
open about the difficulties that my children face. I've got one
my youngest is not in school, and hasn't been for 15 months. A
local authority have said that he requires specialist provision
to support his particular challenges. But there aren't
sufficient places. So we are now having to consider whether we go
down the court route and take the local authority to tribunal
to try and get our child an education. Our eldest is also
struggling, because mainstream education for them is hugely
overwhelming. They have difficulty getting into school
each day, got different support needs to my youngest, but for
me, that means that frequently, my children are here at home
when I'm trying to work, or I'm trying to get them to
appointments. My youngest has now started what's called Esma
provision, which is for children who are medically unable to
attend school, whether that's emotionally or physically, he
has to be dropped to those lessons three times a week. And
that's two hours of lessons, it takes about 40 minutes each way
to get him there. That's a huge amount of time out of my working
week. And being able to juggle that and be in work. I mean, I
am just so fortunate that my employers, that charity IT
leaders are incredibly supportive. And they allow me to
have that flexibility of my working hours to be able to do
that and support my family. Lots of employers can't or don't
offer that degree of flexibility. But there just
needs to be an understanding that as a neurodivergent adult
who's a parent, you might have that going on in the background.
And that's, that's hard, that's really hard to juggle.
Paul Thomas: And as you say, you get that support from your
employer is there, is there a, you know, a set of resources or
something that we can direct people employees to who are in
that situation to maybe go off and have a look at?
Tree Hall: Absolutely, I mean, the first organisation that
comes to mind, and there are many wonderful organisations
offering support in this area, so apologies that I can't
mention them all. But definitely, if you are an
employer that wants to look at increasing accessibility for
Neurodivergence in your workplace, go and have a look at
Ambitious About Autism, they are doing phenomenal work in this
area. They have a brilliant set of resources for employers,
which will help you make really, actually quite straightforward
changes to things like your recruitment processes, which
make them much more accessible for autistic adults or people
with ADHD or various other different forms of neuro
divergence. And actually, recruitment is a really good
example of where the tweaks that you can make to the process that
will help say, an autistic adult, actually will enable all
candidates to deliver a better interview. And I think that's
maybe something that people don't realise about the
accommodations that you can make for neurodivergent adults is
that very often, they're things that will benefit your entire
workforce, not just the neurodivergent members of your
your team. And if we can create an environment that supports
neurodivergent adults, but also helps other members of the team
to thrive and flourish, that feels to me like a really
positive place to be. So definitely go and have a look at
Ambitious About Autism. If you want to just find out more
about, say autism, generally, National Autistic Society.
There's a very particular profile of Autism, which we have
in our family, which is PDA, pathological demand avoidance. I
don't like the term, I have issue with quite a lot of the
terminology around neuro divergence. But PDA requires a
very specific type of support. And again, PDA society is doing
wonderful work in in that area. But if you are an autistic adult
looking either for support for yourself or a family member or
loved one, there are an absolute plethora of fantastic small
local organisations as well that can plug you into support groups
and training courses and so on locally. So just get out there
and do a bit of googling. There's there's a lot of support
out there. And I think one thing I found is that the
neurodivergent community is incredibly supportive and
helpful. So Facebook, if you're on Facebook, or not, came off
that because I just couldn't cope with the overload of it.
But there are wonderful groups on there. LinkedIn has a very
supportive community as well. And if people want to find out
more about particular groups on LinkedIn, I'm very happy, just
you know, send me a message. I'm quite easy to find. There's not
many Tree Hall's on LinkedIn. So yeah, just ping me a message.
And I'd be happy to signpost people to different different
places, but certainly, in terms of charities, Ambitious About
Autism, PDA society, and National Autistic Society will
be three great starting points for people.
Zoe Amar: Those are such helpful resources. And thank you for
sharing them. And we'll put links to them in in the show
notes as well. Just to come back to this point about employers
and hiring and you mentioned that if you improve things for
people who are neurodivergent, you're actually improving this
work for everyone as well. Can you give us some examples of
that?
Tree Hall: Yeah, absolutely. So on the recruitment side, and
ambitious about autism employer pack makes this so easy to
implement. Things that can prevent autistic people from
applying for a role are ambiguity of language. So you
need to be really specific in your job profiles, as an
example, you know, in talking about things like must have good
communication skills, or what does that actually mean? Some
autistic people will be fantastic with written
communications, but may struggle with spoken communications, be
specific, tie it down, make it really clear what you're
expecting. If you're thinking about the actual recruitment
process, be aware that for a lot of autistic people coming into a
new place can be really, really overwhelming. You don't know
what it's gonna look like, you don't know what it's going to
sound like you don't know how to get there. So include things in
your recruitment pack, which could be a photo of the office,
a picture of the room where the interview will happen, give
people the option to be interviewed online. I was
interviewed for my current role online, which was by necessity,
because it was during lockdown. But I found that process much
more accessible because it was more within my control, I was
sitting in my own environment, I knew the environment, it just
felt much safer. Let people know who the interviewers will be,
again, if you can put a headshot and just a brief bio of who that
person is and why they're going to be in the interview. It's
about reducing the unknowns. Lots of neurodivergent adults
will find it challenging to process questions that they're
asked to interview when they're feeling anxious and a bit
stressed anyway. And to be able to pull out the information in
the question and then formulate and articulate a response. Give
them the questions in advance. I mean, really, and truly, it's
not going to adversely impact anybody in making the questions
available. And by doing that you give people who are
neurodivergent the opportunity to really read and understand
the question and think about how that question relates to them.
Equally, if you're neurotypical, having that question in advance,
again, enables you to do that. So you're not you're not
disadvantaging neurotypical applicants, by creating that
openness and transparency and transparency. And the other
things that can really help are being explicit in your
organization's communications about the fact that you welcome
neuro divergence and you welcome applicants from different
backgrounds and who think and see and access the world in
different ways. But you have to, you've got to walk that walk as
well as talk that talk so, be really clear about it be clear
that you are happy to make accommodations for people, if
they feel comfortable to share them. Think about what you as an
employer will say, if you're in an interview with someone, and
they disclose that they're autistic, and ask what you do to
support autistic adults in the workplace, how are you going to
respond to that? Because it matters. And I know of a lot of
autistic adults who've been in interviews, who've asked about
diversity and inclusion, and who have left the interview because
they felt so othered by the response. So think about what
you're going to do to put people at ease and to really
demonstrate your inclusive credentials. I mean, that,
that's all focusing very much on the recruitment side. But
hopefully, that gives you just an insight of some of the small
changes that you can make, which will create a huge difference
for autistic people.
Zoe Amar: And those are such brilliant, clear practical steps
as well, thank you for sharing them Tree.
Tree Hall: Absolute pleasure.
Zoe Amar: And they will be manageable.
Tree Hall: I think they are, a lot of the changes and the
support that we need is very manageable. The challenges that
sometimes there's a perception of why is that person being
treated differently. And you know, it's not fair, they're
getting more than me. And I think it's really useful to keep
remembering that diversity and inclusion is not about treating
everybody the same. That's not inclusive, that's not equality.
Equality is about giving everybody the same access and
the same opportunity. So if I was in a wheelchair, I obviously
wouldn't be able to get into a building unless there was a
ramp. And that doesn't mean that I'm being given an unfair
advantage. If there is a ramp provided, it just means I'm
being given the where with all to have the same level of access
as someone who's not in a wheelchair. And that's, that's
the key, really, for me around equality and inclusion is that
you don't look at what you can do to treat everybody the same.
You have to look at what you do to give everybody the same
opportunity. And that's quite a different thing. But I think
sometimes people get a bit tied up in equality means the same
and parity and it doesn't.
Paul Thomas: Yeah, a lovely sentiment, I mean, we're sort of
coming to the end of our conversation. Before Zoe came on
online, I'm not feeling very well, today, I've got a scarf
around my neck, it's an arsenal scarf and you mentioned that you
and your family are Arsenal fans. You know, a few years ago,
you might not have told me that, you might have kept that hidden
from the world, not wanted to sort of explore that side of
yourself. I recognise that side of things, but I just wondered
what the experience and, have you been able to take your...
both boys?
Tree Hall: No, with a boy and nonbinary.
Paul Thomas: Right. So have you been able to take them to, to
games at all? Because I think the Arsenal have done a lot of
work in this space. And they have a sensory room, I think
where families with with autism and other other neurodivergent
people can go and experience the game in a way that's safe and
open for them. Have you, have you managed to go to games? And
what's that experience like for, for your children and the
family,
Tree Hall: gone to games at Watford, which is our local
club. Shout out to Laura Dawson there, big Watford fan. We've
not done it in the context of using sensory rooms or the
facilities that the clubs are making available, which is
fantastic in terms of making sport more accessible, not just
for neurodivergent families, but also for families where there's
some kind of physical disability as well. The games can be really
overwhelming for my kids, because it's not just about what
happens in the stadium. It's also about what happens on the
way to the stadium. So with the best efforts of the club's
things like for Arsenal, having to get on a train and then the
tube. That's very often a step too far for my children. I hope
we might find ways to be able to get some more games in future.
But I think for us, we as a family recognise that we all
have different needs and abilities. And our abilities
might change day to day or even sometimes hour to hour. So we
have to be very flexible about what we will encourage our kids
to do and what we will do as a family And that's another
challenge that you face as neurodivergent adult with
children is that you have to sort of change perhaps your
expectations of what family time looks like. So for us, family
time isn't always all four of us doing things together. It's one
adult with one child doing something that that child can
access, while the other adult is doing something different with
the other child. But yeah, I mean, the football side, I'd
love to get them to more games. I fear that neither of them are
going to be as big an Arsenal fan as my husband and I but it's
time, it's time to indoctrinate them into the Arsenal ways, and
hopefully, fingers crossed that it doesn't all crash and burn
now.
Zoe Amar: Very good, we're also fulfilling one of Paul's aims
here to ultimately make this a football podcast. So really
good, really good to hear about and really interesting to hear
about these experiences as well. And this has been such a
fascinating discussion Tree. Thank you. And before you go, is
there anything that you want to share with our listeners about
charity IT leaders?
Tree Hall: Oh, thank you. So that's really nice for you to
give us space to do that. Just to say if you are a charity or a
not for profit, and you want to do more with your IT, it doesn't
matter if you don't have an IT team doesn't matter if you
outsource, doesn't matter. If you're an office manager, that's
also got responsibility for IT, come and find out about our
community because there's a huge range of knowledge, wealth and
support within the community. People are very, very happy to
share and collaborate. And you know, we're here to help
charities be more effective by getting more from that IT. So
yeah, come and find out more. And we've got our annual
conference, rescheduled from October because there was burst
Watergate mark two it was it was really stressful. But we'll be
in Oxford again, on February the eighth, ninth and tenth. So if
you're a member, and you haven't booked a place, come along, if
you're not a member, but you'd like to come we have got a
limited number of non member places. So yeah, just come along
to find out more, we'd love to welcome you.
Zoe Amar: Fantastic. And we will include a link to charity IT
leaders in the show notes as well. And thank you so much Tree
for sharing your story here today. I'm sure it will inspire
and educate many people. So thank you so much.
Paul Thomas: Such an interesting conversation. Thank you.
Tree Hall: It's been great talking with you both. Thank you
for letting me disappear off down rabbit holes and talk to my
heart's content. It's much appreciated and it's been lovely
chatting with you both.
Zoe Amar: Lovely. Thank you so much to tree for joining us on
the podcast. What an inspiration she is.
Paul Thomas: Yeah, tree was a fantastic guest so open. So
thoughtful. I certainly learned a lot. And going back to our
intro. I thought it was really interesting how she talked about
the experience for someone with autism, of working through a
screen and how helpful that could be in certain situations
when she was talking about not being able to make eye contact
with people, but a screen being a barrier to that and actually a
useful barrier in that sense. I thought it was a really, really
helpful and useful conversation. I hope our listeners did too.
Until our next episode, you can find us on Twitter, we're at
Starts at the Top1 and you can also email us at
startsatthetop@gmail.com If you have any questions or insight or
anything you'd like to share at all, please do get in touch with
us through those channels.
Zoe Amar: And if you listen to us on Apple podcasts or anywhere
else, you get your podcasts you can rate and review, please do,
it all helps with our visibility and reach. And we'll speak to
you again in a couple of weeks.
Paul Thomas: Speak you soon. Bye
Zoe Amar: Bye