Jeff Nathenson 0:03 Companies, creators, talent, celebrities, everyone is very, very uncomfortable right now. And my recommendation to these executives is you are going to continue to be uncomfortable. None of this is meant for you to settle into a situation where you can calmly go about your business, understand your competitors, understand the marketplace and execute on this. Paul Thomas 0:25 Welcome to a brand new episode of Starts at the Top: our podcast about digital leadership and change. I'm Paul Thomas. Zoe Amar 0:32 And I'm Zoe Amar. On today's episode, we're sharing our conversation with Jeff Nathenson, who is Managing Director, International at Whistle: the digital entertainment media company for Gen Z. Launching the international business of Whistle in 2014, he has worked on strategy, programming, channel management, marketing, and monetization, on behalf of the Premier League, the Olympics, FIFA, World Rugby, Major League Baseball, and many others. Paul Thomas 1:02 It was a fascinating dive into how Gen Z is consuming information on the internet and a fascinating discussion about the world of sports streaming. It's not all about TikTok, but is about short form video content, or content generally but usually video. TikTok's the major player in that arena. And Zoe TikTok's been in the news again this week. Zoe Amar 1:25 It has indeed Paul for really sad reasons. So we're recording on Monday, the 20th of February. And one of the new stories that is going on at the moment is the disappearance of Nicola Bulley. A case which has been dominating news headlines for several weeks now since she disappeared. We're not going to talk about the case itself, because there are so many unknowns. What we are going to talk about is the enormous amount of social media action, and also information and misinformation that has been floating around. So in the show notes, we're going to post a link to an article by a BBC reporter. And she's talked about some of the engagement that this content is getting on social media. So for example, on TikTok videos discussing Nicola Bulley's case, since she first disappeared, and using her name as a hashtag have accumulated more than 270 million views. And Instagram reels using her name have had more than 158 million views. And posts have had around 115,000 interactions. And this is pretty scary stuff, isn't it? Because it feels like there's a whole enormous story around the central story, which let's not forget, is the story of a very ordinary family, that's been through this awful, awful situation, which is still ongoing. And it's spilling over into some really horrible real life incidents as well. So there was a story overnight that I saw where Nicola Bulley's partner had one of their social media accounts hacked. And then there are all these stories which are also discussed in this article, which we put in the show notes from the BBC, where so called TikTok detectives have gone down to the village and are trying to act as amateur detectives. And it's just a really, really awful, really sad turn of events, isn't it because it feels like something that is this very personal, very, very difficult, very traumatic, very tragic situation for the family, has kind of become entertainment and just seen as content for some people who are going to get involved in the story and acting as detectives, which is not their job to do. Paul Thomas 3:47 Yeah, and not just for the family, but we were discussing earlier, it's a small, small town, small village, everyone in the- everyone in the local environment is is suffering because of this with people sort of trespassing on their land. There's one story about somebody going through gardens with torches on and you know, not really knowing what's what's going on. They've had to hire private security to come in and help up there as well. All the while whilst the police are trying to do their investigation. So it must sort of hamper- hamper progress. But it's not- it's not just- it's not just TikTok, I mean in this case, it's TikTok, but I think there's a sort of a fascination for this type of true crime content. We talked about the burgeoning podcast market, I think podcasts were sort of getting more and more popular as these types of programmes were appearing on podcasts. And I think it's it's it's a fascination but I think it's it's it's tripping- this is tripping too far into amateur detective territory, isn't it? Everyone thinks they've got a role to play in solving it and actually, probably the best thing to do is to let the people that are involved in trying to solve the actual crime- the actual crime- we don't sorry- we don't know whether it's a crime - trying to solve the case or trying to get to the bottom of the case, it's holding them back. Zoe Amar 5:14 Absolutely. And I think the social media platforms have a role to play in this kind of situation. I mean, there must be something that can be done, because it must be incredibly distressing for the family and for friends, to see all of this, you know, disinformation, misinformation on social media. And there must be something that the social media platforms can can do to try and lessen the impact of that. But of course, getting this kind of engagement is also part of the whole business model of these platforms. And therein lies the trouble. Paul Thomas 5:51 Yeah, I think there was a bit in the post wasn't there a bit in the story about TikTok are trying to respond to it. I get the feeling that, you know, we don't want to we don't want to tar too many people with the same brush, but I get the feeling that TikTok do take their responsibility, quite seriously, to what goes out on their platform in the way that some of the other channels, not mentioning any names Twitter, maybe don't. But I think there's quite a- quite a lot for them to delve into here. I think mainly because it has sort of spurred this this online offline behaviour. So it's what's happening on TikTok, but that's turning into people taking the law literally into their own hands and thinking that they can go off and solve something. That- that sort of level of engagement is obviously off the charts, but in this case, really not helpful. Zoe Amar 6:43 I think it also sets a precedent for what would happen in these kinds of cases in the future. So I suppose one thing that police will need to plan for in these high profile cases like this is this kind of content being on social media platforms, and how that's almost part of the job of policing now, or certainly something where they need to be working in very close partnership with the social media companies. I mean, maybe they already are, who knows. And also thinking about additional strategies to protect family and friends who may see this kind of content. Paul Thomas 7:20 Yeah, and I'm just sort of looking through the article now. And one of the things is, there's a poster up of Nicola Bulley, where it says "Call 999 for- if you- if you had a sighting or you've got any- any information call 101". Maybe that's part of it. You know, it's- it's those aren't the, that isn't the way that this generation that Jeff has been talking about in the episode to come is communicating. They don't use phones for phoning people and phone numbers. They use the messaging apps. So perhaps you're right, perhaps it is about how the social media companies help the police to really think about how you police issues like this in 2023 and beyond, because those the world has changed, the way that we communicate has changed. And maybe that's just a reflection of where we are. It's just it's a bit sad, isn't it that the impact is so strong on on the family and the victims of this incident. Zoe Amar 8:19 100%. Paul Thomas 8:20 And now for our interview with Jeff Nathenson. Zoe Amar 8:24 We are very excited to have Jeff Nathenson on the podcast today. Jeff has more than 30 years of international experience in media, extending from production and operations through to business development and sales. He is currently the Managing Director for the International Division of Whistle: the digital entertainment media company for Gen Z. Launching the international business of Whistle in 2014, he has worked on strategy, programming, channel management, marketing, and monetization on behalf of the Premier League, the Olympics, FIFA, World Rugby, Major League Baseball, and many others. Prior to Whistle Sports, Jeff helped launch the Partnership Programme on YouTube, bringing BBC, Channel 4, ITV, Fremantle, Endemol, and many others onto the platform. He ended his time at YouTube as its head of football. In a previous life, he was an Executive Producer at CNN, and did stints IMG and Dow Jones. Jeff, welcome to the podcast. We're so happy to have you on Starts at the Top. Jeff Nathenson 9:35 Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate the opportunity. I love a good podcast. Nothing is better than a good podcast. Zoe Amar 9:43 We are delighted to have you here. And can we start by hearing a bit more about what team Whistle does? Jeff Nathenson 9:50 Your team Whistle is a you know, is a strange- has been a strange odyssey. It started off about 8 to 8 10 years ago as, there was a trend within the social media space of aggregating YouTube channels, multi channel networks - we're not even allowed to use the word multi channel networks anymore, but we aggregated the top creators in the area of sport on YouTube. And we we're going to create a business around that. But like any good social, digital business, we pivoted only about 348 times along the way, in terms of what kind of business we wanted to be. There's a lot of learnings along the way. And what has happened is, is we recognise the challenges of being successful on social is really, really difficult for traditional media companies, brands, for publishers, and we found that we could find many ways of helping them. One is we continue to operate a network of the top creators in sports. And that means we work with them closely in terms of brand brand integrations, we run our own channels, which are geared towards entertaining content for young audiences. And then subsequently, we have a business- an agency business that helps traditional brands navigate the social media market, and how it changes regularly on an hourly basis, and how to have a successful brand presence on there. And really understanding what works, what doesn't work. That's our business. Zoe Amar 11:10 That's so interesting. And you mentioned, there a really fascinating point about how social can be really hard for publishers and some of those more traditional organisations as it were. Why is that? Jeff Nathenson 11:24 For those executives that are my demographic, which is old- Zoe Amar 11:29 You're not old! Jeff Nathenson 11:30 - old. The truth is, is that for a while the industry was really, there was a high degree of stability. We knew our business well. We knew how distribution worked through cable, through television, through radio. And we knew how we made money through carriage fees and through advertising. And then all of a sudden social comes along, and it's like, it's not just that we're going to transform the business because we've seen transformations throughout our careers from the creation- from the move from terrestrial to cable, and from you know from VHS to DVD. We've seen changes, but the models have remained consistent over a period of time to build the business, the revenue sources remained largely the same. And then also social media comes and drops a big bomb in the middle of the industry, and it says "not only is everything going to change in terms of who can enter the business, who can create content, but how you monetize, how you reach audiences, and it's going to be a brutal kind of Thunderdome competition to get to the top of this. And you're gonna be competing not against just the competitors who you thought you had, in the case of sports, traditional sports broadcasters are gonna compete against other sports broadcasters, but you find yourself competing against the likes of ArsenalFanTV, and- and the- and The Ringer and Barstool Sports", and all of a sudden you had all these new competitors. And then to make things even more challenging in this space, the platform's continually change and evolve. Two years ago, no one needed a TikTok strategy. No one even knew what TikTok was, no one knew what Musical.ly was, let alone ByteDance in China, and all of a sudden, it's like every organisation is like, "well, what do I do on TikTok", and it's like, there's this and you see platforms come and go, and content formats come and go, and personalities come and go. And it's just very difficult for people who said, "please just let me focus on my core business execute on it well", and that's just not possible in the current market and the way things are happening. Change is happening so quickly, so what we talk about is not having a clear set of- this is our business, is having a strategy to deal with the continuous change and upheaval that social media has put in, in play. Paul Thomas 13:37 Putting businesses back in that or helping them to understand that ecosystem, to sort of navigate it through and think "well, normally, we would be in a position where we're creating the content, but actually there are people outside of our organisation that have a huge influence in the market, whether you're an accountant, whether you're a sports company, whatever it is, there are people out there that will have more sway, more influence than the you, and how you profit from that or how you bring that to- towards your brand". Jeff Nathenson 14:06 Yeah, and I think that the difficulty in understanding this is a lot of people look at social media, and they will see, oh, look, some guy in their basement has created an enormously successful channel with no production values and no storytelling and no access to rights. How hard can it be? And what you have is a scenario, but the difference is, is there are millions upon millions of young people that view a career path as a YouTuber as a very important potential career path for them. And so you have millions of kids creating content putting it out there. A small number will become successful. They will become the Mr. Beasts, the KSIs, the Dude Perfects of this space, but the vast majority don't become that space. The diff- and but you don't see that, we don't see all that churn that's taking place with kids uploading videos every day on these various platforms trying to cut through and to become, you know, the next Robbie Lyle ArsenalFanTV, but the difference is, as a sports publisher, as a content owner, you have to be successful on social. You don't have the option of not being successful, which means you have to dedicate the time, the resources, and the ability to understand and really sit there and say, "we have to be here", because if you're creating a media brand, if you are creating, even if you are a direct to consumer brand offering, like a traditional company like Gillette, each one of these guys has to be successful on social. They cannot not afford to be successful, because that's where ultimately the consumers are. And that means that they have to be successful, where these millions of other kids who are creating content, ultimately decide that maybe I'm not going to be a famous YouTuber, I should consider dentistry or something like that. And so- but we don't have that option when we work in media. And so that's why we have to develop a strategy, a roadmap, and an ability to iterate along the way so that they have a better chance for success. Zoe Amar 16:00 Do you think that makes some of these more long established organisations uncomfortable? Because what you've described there, and I'm sure we can all see parallels for that in the different industries at work, it's something about the shifting power dynamics isn't there and how content is no longer a top down process? In many ways. Jeff Nathenson 16:20 I think you are incredibly diplomatic about this. Does it make them uncomfortable? I think they're scared shitless. And rightly so, right? Because it's a much more democratic process. Companies come up, you know, companies, creators, talent, celebrities, all come up in ways that you never expect from different locations. And you have to compete against them, when you don't even understand them. And so yes, everyone is very, very uncomfortable right now. And my recommendation to these executives is that- that is you are going to continue to be uncomfortable. None of this is meant for you to settle into a situation where you can calmly go about your business, understand your competitors, understand the marketplace and execute on this. It is very, very scary, especially for people who reached certain levels within organisations by operating within a very structured environment. And then to have to deal with the chaos on this. The vast majority of traditional brands do horrifically badly on these platforms are terrible. Just take a look at some of your favourite consumer brands, and look at how they're doing on social. And you'll look at them say how are they doing? How can you be a Coca Cola? How can you be a Coca Cola with a massive marketing budget, have millions of followers on your YouTube channel, and yet at the same time get 2000 views on a video that you uploaded two days ago? It makes no sense. The analogy I often use- and they refuse to talk me no matter how often I reach out to them is Rolex. Rolex has a massive following on Instagram. And there's millions upon millions of people who want to engage with the Rolex brand on Instagram. And if you look at it, the video they upload where they have millions of followers, they'll get 10,000 views on a video, or a couple of like, you know, a couple 1000 likes on a still image. If you have a- if you have a queue around the corner of Knightsbridge of 12 million people who are interested in your brand, and they walk into a store and only 10,000 of them are interested in what you put up there. And your staff is indifferent. You see tumbleweed blowing through the display cases of your product. If the CEO of Rolex saw this and saw the indifference of his content on Instagram, and he thought of it as his store in Knightsbridge, he would burn that store to the ground and shut it and never let anyone walk by it again. And they- because the executives don't know about how these platforms work, are indifferent to it, it's detrimental to the brand presentation in this audience. People are asking 12 million people are asking Rolex daily to say I want to see what you have to put on your Instagram Stories for me, I want to know more about your brand, but the product we're putting up there is terrible. And they have to recognise this and say either this is not a place for me to reside at all, I will continue to depend on word of mouth, and boutiques in Knightsbridge. Or I will engage with the social platforms in the way that they're designed in a way that really resonates with the audiences as well. And again, there's a clear demographic differentiation here as well, where it's like, if you want to talk to young audiences, if you want to talk to young people, and you're not on social, you're- you're fooling yourself. Paul Thomas 19:28 So there's a- there's a really good example here and all these examples are going to come- they're all gonna be Arsenal because I'm an Arsenal supporter and you've already mentioned ArsenalFanTV. We might turn a few listeners off but I know a group of people who will be listening, so that's all good. And that's the Prime drink Prime Hydration which was a collaboration between KSI and Logan Paul, and this is an energy drink. It's sort of come out of nowhere that they developed I guess I don't know the back story behind the development of the drink, but they developed a drink. They started talking about it on on social. Kids got to know about it. My kids got to know about it. All kids got to know about it. Jeff Nathenson 20:10 They can't get ahold of it. They can't find it anywhere. Paul Thomas 20:18 Exactly. So this is exactly I'm putting this next to Coca Cola, for example, who they will drink Coca Cola, but they won't search to the ends of the earth to find a bottle of it. So ksi, but I think he's an Arsenal fan they sell at the Emirates Stadium, I think they have a deal with Asda. You can't find it. In an Asda. It's now on on eBay selling for 10 pounds plus a bottle. People are scalping the market for this drink. And they sell it the Emirates, by the way for five pounds, five pounds a bottle. I made my boys share a bottle, I wasn't gonna go to temple for two drinks, for God's sake. It's not it's more expensive than beer. That's a perfect example of what we're talking about here, isn't it that something like that from two content creators can rise up and become such a phenomenon that the traditional brands just will not be able to deal with it, they can acquire it, I'm pretty sure it will be in Coca Cola as per view that they could go out and buy that business. But this is this is completely different playing field. Jeff Nathenson 21:20 And I think what I think what's really missing from this is the recognition within the traditional British media industry, the power of someone like ksi, and sitting there saying, Well, we think of him as an individual is a celebrity. But he's a business. He really is a media business in and of himself. And in credit, he's been around, it's like people, I was shocked by this. It's like, oh, I have to pay five quid for this, you know, for the prime drink. It's like he's been around for eight years now. And he has built not just an audience in the UK, but a global audience. I was sitting next to him a long time ago at an FA Cup Final a him and Calfreezy. And all the kids are running up to him to get pictures. And everyone who is my age and older, is looking at me and looking at him and wondering who is this celebrity, I don't know who this person is. And he's not just a celebrity, he's a business. And on top of being a business, what the fascinating part about this whole scenario is, is the fact that if I was a traditional media business, I would not be looking to create consumer brands, a consumer brand, like a power drink, I would be thinking about how do I sell my media? How do I sell my sponsorship, but he comes to media with such an original approach. In terms of everything he does, he sits there and says, I'm actually going to make more money selling direct to consumer a product that is related to who I am what I'm about, then then I would make if I just sold sponsorship around my videos. And he's seen this with prime. And we've seen this with other areas with you know, other areas within the business. And it goes back to the Kardashian business model where they look at themselves as personalities. And we look at them as media properties. But in reality, they are businesses with their tentacles extending to so many different places. So we see KSI selling Prime, we see Portnoy selling pizzas. And this is so much more about the problem with the traditional media businesses, we look at our business selling our content, and selling our advertising sponsorship. And they're looking and saying there's so much more that we can do in terms of engaging with our audiences and making money out of this. And they're operating at a different level than the rest of the traditional media. And we have to catch up to where their thinking is and to have that kind of flexibility and creativity in our approach. Zoe Amar 23:34 How do you educate leaders about this? Because obviously, this needs to be a massive mindset as well as strategic shift. And you talked about how some of them are very scared of this change. And I know that Paul and I have always got a bit frustrated with that. Sometimes the lack of horizon scanning that occasionally goes on around the board table. So what's your advice on that? How do you take leaders through this? Jeff Nathenson 24:00 It's it's very, very hard. I've been at it now for in terms of you know, I started working at YouTube, immediately after the acquisition by Google must be I don't like 2006 2007 or something. So it's been a long, long time talking to executives about this. And I have yet to see the shift in this space that is necessary for what where the eyeballs are where the people are. What I try and do is I do a couple of things. I frame the conversation as to how they're doing against their competitors, which is people they recognise Sky Sports recognises that BT discovery is a competitor. But then I show them in the same way how they're doing against key key creators in the space, using the data metrics that are available on these platforms and showing them the difference and that should be eye opening. The greatest illumination to them comes when they watched the way that their kids consume media, when they're sitting next to their kid and watching their kid on tick tock, but even then that doesn't frame it within the business context, the way that they are operating. And so it has to be the kind of thing where you use data and metrics and numbers and charts to try and explain the different scenarios to them as to what's really going on in the media space. And the truth being truth be known, they do have a rough idea what's going on. The question that you face with media organisations is whether they can make the investment to do the necessary pivot towards a business that looks different for them, they should be able to sustain their existing business models for the foreseeable future. But at the same time, they have to build in this new approach towards distributed media, and it's very uncomfortable for them. But incredibly important that they do that, because someone's not going to also turn 35 and say, Gee, what I really need is a sky box right now, you know, they're not going to turn and say, Well, I'm done with checking, I'm checking the news on Twitter, it's time for me to get a subscription to The Economist, and I can't wait for it to arrive at my post office box every week, there's not going to change. The young people are not, you know, the people who are on there, creating content, absorbing content on a regular basis, are not going to be the kind of people where there's going to be a shift as as they reach a certain age, it's going to be this is the way that they're going to continue to operate. Paul Thomas 26:12 We probably see that with things like the BBC, I was listening to something the other day on a podcast where they were talking about the challenge to the BBC, where they can't raise the the cost of the licence fee. They need to react to the way that the world is going and more content on more channels. So things like local radio get squashed. They can't afford to pay for it anymore, that they need to shift in different directions. But BBC is irrelevant to them. Jeff Nathenson 26:41 I love the BBC, as we're you know, I love Melvyn Bragg, I love the now show I love I love the news quiz. When I arrived here in London a long time ago, airing BBC Radio four. I've just really I really enjoyed that. But it's completely irrelevant to the young audience and everything they've done. Everything they've done recently has just not worked in terms of super serving an audience is incredibly important. It's like a subsidised service for all people like me right now. And they have to change. They have to change your mentality and approach and become much more of a distributed media play. They are not strong on social despite the fact that they have a large social team, they don't prioritise social. And yet their core mission is to entertain, educate, inform, and it doesn't say in the charter, that it has to be on channels that they own exclusively in distribution, that they control, that is a residual part of not being able to embrace where the future is heading. They they that they that the licence fee is in danger because they are not as relevant as they once were. And that young people are not going to fight tooth and nail to defend the BBC should not come as a shock, because they haven't been serving young people for a long time. If Blippi is getting many, many more views, and helping parents, with their kids, entertainment and education stuff, then don't be surprised that CBS is not as important as it once was. Because, you know, CBS is not relevant on the platforms where parents are putting their kids when they need a couple of minutes of calm and quiet at home. Paul Thomas 28:21 So who who's closer than the traditional broadcasters who's closest to getting this right and getting the mix? Right? Jeff Nathenson 28:29 I mean, I'll speak from my own own perspective on this. And because it comes from the sports perspective, and I think Skye is getting closer than the others, they still have a very difficult model ahead of them in terms of the way that they acquire content, the way the packaging up and distributed. But both of you see a strong social presence on their sports side. I love to now TV product for accessing live sports in a way that I can access it on my phone and then cast it onto my screen. Glass is an ongoing, evolving product that could be competitive in this space. For being a large corporation, they seem to be much more nimble in this area than the others are. And I think that's, you know, I love the iPlayer I think the BBC, BBC sounds is great, and all that stuff. I think it's great. I think just the challenge that they face is that it's just not relevant to my kids at all in any shape or form. They don't even know it exists. And so you're having a generation of young kids through that have no interaction with BBC at all. And so I think that's really a difficult place for them to be in until they completely revamp their distribution approach and accept that they have to do third party distribution at an at an equal level to what they're doing on their own and operated channels. And that's gonna be very difficult with the hierarchical approach to the to the organisation the government approval on this These are not people who are on Tik Tok on a regular basis. They don't know what's going on there. But boy, it the BBC really put his heart to it, and said, we are going to be the news and information for the tick for tick tock users, they can do amazing things, they can do wonderful things they could, they could provide news stories that were relevant to young audiences and told in original fresh ways. There's so much to be unlocked on the BBC, but they're just, they're just too high bound and dependent upon traditional distribution. If you were with that, and with that, I'm going to be cancelled in the UK and north. Paul Thomas 30:36 Exits it's true, you know, you need to, Jeff Nathenson 30:38 it comes from a place of love and affection, and wanting to see something like the BBC, you know, really move ahead and say there is a common tie in terms of what is important in a general community. And we can provide that service through storytelling through media. Paul Thomas 30:54 Yeah, well, mine, you know, my kids are 10 and 13. We occasionally get them to sit on the sofa with us to watch TV, it's usually it's that points in the week Strictly Come Dancing is a bit of a family thing, the Great British Bake Off is a bit of a family thing, both of which have, you know, good, strong social presences. But my oldest is a case in point here, I walked into the lounge last night, and it was Champions League night. So he had the BT app on on the Xbox. And he would rather sit and watch the goal show, which is for me, like ADHD waiting to happen. You know, there's, there's, they're basically showing the goals from every day and going across Europe to different screens, and all this sort of stuff where I just want to go, I just want to watch 90 minutes of football one end to the other. That's kind of what I want to do. But that is you know, just a microcosm of then what he will then go and do and look at on his phone where he'll go and watch the goals replayed by content creators rather than through the sort of the native sky social channels and things like that. That model is changing, and then you bring into the mix. I think one that's really interesting is designed YouTube, which Zoe, you might not have heard of that zone. I think they show things like the women's Champions League, for example, for free on YouTube, which is groundbreaking itself through through making their money through advertising and things like that. And they've just taken a step. I don't know whether they've done this before. So forgive me for my ignorance, but they've just made the step as well. of releasing. I think it's worldwide in the UK very soon a Ronaldo documentary that that takes them from we put football on TV to we are now documentary makers. In the space of God, I've only been known of them for about 18 months, two years, Jeff Nathenson 32:45 I have to we have put this in context. And we I have to have a disclaimer does own purchased our parent company about a couple months ago. So everything designed does is amazing. I'm gonna say that right now, along with the disclaimer. But yeah, I think one of the interesting points that you bring up on this is both in terms of the way that live sport is consumed. But in the past, in the sports arena, we have undervalued highlights, archive, right. And so we've only valued live because we had the largest audiences watching at one moment. So we could, for the marketeers we could reach them. The classic Superbowl ad by you reach the largest potential audience and that's why you pay millions of dollars for 30 seconds on the Superbowl. And so up until now, it's like life has been the way but with with the way that people are watching content right now, archive, we've been able to repackage archive on behalf of the Premier League in ways it's Garner's big audiences, we did a little bit work with the zone boxing, we just started to do some work with them. And we repackaged and De La Hoya boxing match from 2006 or something and got a half a million views a month ago, which is more than a lot of other current content is concerned. So the hierarchy of what is important is really of what is really important, high life being at the top of the pyramid archive, being at the bottom in terms of the value chain of a sports event is undergoing this massive change. And we don't recognise this. And in the same way that you will, when I watch live sports with my 20 year old, I will have enough on the big screen. And both of us will be looking at the phone at the same time that things are going on. So the question is, is what is the most important screen during a live sporting event? Is it the one that's the big screen on the wall that is out there? It's kind of background images? Or is it the screen closest to your nose where you're actually paying attention? So all of a sudden, the live tweets around the football has enormous value, but it's not quite recognised by the industry in the same way that we fetishize this thing where it's like, if there are hoardings on the side of the pitch that is more valuable than the brand messages that might be coming through your Twitter feed while you're watching a football match. And it's like we there's there's, there's a lot the economics are changing. And the the priority of what is important is changing in terms of the user. But yet we remain riveted in the way that we approach sport, in the same way that we approached for it as the way that we've approached it since it first came on television back in the 1950s. And, you know, live sport came on television 1950s. And things have changed and we have to shift as an industry in recognising that Zoe Amar 35:31 trend to be noticed amongst Gen said that you're talking about the multi screening there. Were alongside that, are there any other ways in which you've noticed that younger people are consuming this sort of content that you think are worth highlighting? Jeff Nathenson 35:47 I think the first thing that we have to recognise is it's not about because we talked about consumption. And instead, what it really is, is a conversation. So what you recognise when you watch young people on social platforms is that they are not participating in just sitting back and absorbing information, they are participants in this. And you see this in the likes of Tik Tok with, you know, with with duets, and on YouTube was stitch with the new product stitching is they want to participate, they want to communicate, they want to have a conversation, they feel as though ksi is their mate, and therefore, he's part of the world in a way that traditional passive video viewing is not. And so I think it has to, you have to start with the recognition that anything you're creating is not a iCreate, you, you you absorb it is I am launching a conversation, this is very uncomfortable space for traditional media, because they feel like they don't have to have a conversation with their audience. They don't have to have that dialogue, they figure I've created this amazing story, and you are going to enjoy it and it's going to but instead, you have to accept the fact that people will have opinions about what you produce. And what you put out there. And we'll want to begin to have a dialogue and the expectation of young people is that they are participating in conversation and not being spoken at spoken down to. And that's where you start. And this is for me is a major trend. And anything that you do is you sit there and say, I want to I'm sorry to have a conversation with my community. It's not that I'm dictating the direction of anything. And you have to accept that and then take on board their feedback. And that will change the kind of stories that you're telling going forward the conversations you're having. Community is a word that we overuse, and is a cliche, however, it helps frame what you're trying to accomplish right now. And if you don't want to have a conversation with the people who you're intending to, to reach, then you shouldn't be on social media. And I would question whether you want to be immediate. So this is not a novelist going up into a cabin to write an amazing Opus and delivering it five, six years later. And we all absorb and say what genius this person is, it's a totally different process. Paul Thomas 38:05 One of the things I was thinking as I was sort of looking through the team was a website looking at what you do was I came across the think is that your top show that you produce no days off, which is sort of behind it's like a behind the scenes of, of kids who are going to go through sports academies and wanting to be sports people, essentially. And there's, there's quite a trend of this sort of programming happening at the moment, there's obviously the all or nothing series on on Amazon that sort of gives you a glimpse behind the scenes of professional teams. So Tottenham Man City arsenal, they do it for other other sports as well as, as football, soccer. There's football dreams, the Academy show, which I think is on Channel Four, if I'm right, which gives you a glimpse behind the academy at Crystal Palace arsenal, have done their own documentary on hail and all of these things. So the original reason I got interested in social media was because there was suddenly this availability of people on these channels, you felt that as you said, these are my friends, these are people I can have a conversation with. That's what attracted me and at the first point of contact, and this problem that we have with social media at the moment is one where it's becoming toxic. Those people that have given us that access and those that conversation with them if you'd like a retreating somewhat, and we're looking for new ways to connect with them. These documentaries, I think, have started to really do that. And the evidence I'd see before my own eyes is when a turn up at the Emirates Stadium now, there is a relationship between the fans who have consumed that that documentary had that insight had that conversation in their mind with these players, and then are confronted with them in real life and that the for me is the sort of the connection that I'm seeing Between my kids consuming content in this way, walking into the live environment as in a football stadium, and immediately having that connection, you can hear the noises gone up, you can hear the relationship between the team and the fans is completely different. And I think it's not all down to that. But some of it is that connection that they feel they have through the connection with the players that they're getting through this content. Jeff Nathenson 40:23 It's maybe it's because our school is doing a bit better this season as Paul Thomas 40:26 well. Well, there is that as well. Jeff Nathenson 40:29 I mean, there's couple, there's a couple of really interesting points on this. And so you point towards the documentaries is doing this kind of this kind of you feel closer to the players you feel like they're you feel you have much more of an affinity for him, you're not just see him on the pitch, and the terrible post match interviews. And so you get a really a good chance, I find it very interesting about Robbie Lyle and ArsenalFan. TV, because I love after going to a match at the Emirates. And again, I'm not an arsenal supporter, but sometimes I go, but I love watching. Everyone knows where his camera position is. And everyone knows where to find them afterwards. Arsenal provides a little bit of security with them. But then there will be a large group of very young people standing around while Robbie does his post match discussion. And one of the things is like some people find that Robbie's a bit too divisive. But what he does when you see these young people gather around is they feel that they have a voice, they feel that their voice can be heard, and can be part of the discussion around the direction of the club. And that's something where their their voice can then further be amplified through these platforms. Now you're absolutely right, that there's toxicity in this space, in terms of the fact of everyone has a voice. Some people will use that platform in their voices for divisive language, because that's a great way of getting awareness, notoriety right away. But then when you ask about where's the where is the role of the modern media company in this space? What role do organisations like ours and even the traditional guys who've spoken on the BBC, etc. What roles are played, we have the ability and responsibility to tell positive stories, stories that empower young people. And we know if we do it well on the platforms that there will be, there will be a dialogue around key positive aspects of that we want to highlight and that is our job because it's easy. For notoriety to come to the top and obnoxious to win the day, it's harder for positivity to win, what we've done with no days off, which for me is encouraging is to show what it takes for a young person to be dedicated in the show, and to provide the inspiration to young people to say, you can do this, but this is what hard work looks like. And a lot of people will talk about social media as being this kind of thing where you have this kind of sentiment of envy of the people around you as you see them. We all know that Instagram is not the real world that people show an edited version of their lives and the best version of their lives. And it can for some people can prey on them that says, Well, my life's not as wonderful. I'm not in the Bahamas on holiday or hiking, Machu Picchu or something like that. And there is that downside to this aspirational quality of this, but it also encourages people to get off their ass encourages young people to say you can these are your friends and they are doing interesting things you do, you can do this. And through all the awareness. On social media, you can find a map a path for you to start doing this stuff, whether it's simply I want to be a YouTuber, or I want to be an Esports athlete to whine to be a professional athlete to wanting to do better on my GCSEs on Comm site. It's all there that's available and accessible. And so at the same time, we sit there and say, wow, there's a lot of toxicity. within social media. There's also the Khan Academy that provides every young person who is studying immediate access to some of the best tutors out there in their key subject areas. And so like anything that we create, every time we look at a new a new media platform is created immediately we will see the negatives about it. But it is the responsibility of those of us who are committed to working in media and storytelling. I see you again BBC to sit there and say we will own a significant part of the dialogue. And we will bring positive stuff. The guys who are doing the negative Korean, all the negative content are not waking up every morning and say, How do I inform, entertain and educate. They're not thinking that. But those of us who work in media thinking that way because that's the way that we're wired. That's why we got into business in the first place. But we have to do a much better job on this. We must be we have to be much more creative, much more responsive, and the opportunities are amazing. And we have to overwhelm the negativity with really good programming that really that shapes the way young people are talking about stalking. Does that makes sense? Paul Thomas 45:01 It makes absolute sense. Yeah. Yeah. It's the same sort of thing, isn't it? You? Were in my old in my old world working in, in, in communications, how do you bury bad news, you create good news. And the bad news ventually disappears. It's the same story. Jeff Nathenson 45:19 Again, I have yet to see really the organisations that should be first and foremost in developing this kind of this kind of content sit in and say we want to own news on tick tock, we want to be the preeminent educational channel, on YouTube that's been left to the Khan Academy and not to the likes of the BBC, or PBS for that matter. Zoe Amar 45:39 And looking ahead to 2023, because this interview will probably come out and towards the end of 2022. What do you see as those big trends that leaders need to prepare for next year? Jeff Nathenson 45:53 I can speak about in terms of tactical versus big vision kind of stuff. Whenever you put a big vision out there. You, you definitely get it wrong. Because again, I've always been aware as to how many times I get wrong when I think big thoughts I'm looking at right now. I think right now there's a couple of different things that I'm I feel I'm lacking and where 2023 is going to be very interesting for us. Only fans, pornographic website, right app, or perhaps one of the coolest business models out there for content creators ensuring a really good source of revenue I, the question for only fans, is whether they can migrate away from the adult oriented content. And I believe they are committed towards this towards an open platform, which allows for very good revenue opportunities for those creators who have large audiences as well, as their I say it publishers that have premium content that people are willing to pay for. It's a great, it's an 8020 rev share, you get, which is considering you don't have to pay for hosting, streaming, app build. You know, it's a really interesting opportunity now, whether the brand can migrate across from the current implications of it, versus what it could be potentially is one of the most interesting things to watch. On on the other end, I The other thing is I'm completely mystified by twitch and remain to remain that way to this day, but yet remains to be an incredibly compelling platform for live content, live engagement, and the majority of us don't know how to operate on it. And there's a really interesting platform and audience out there that none of us have really been able to find in a meaningful, meaningful way outside of the games publishers, who seems to have a better grip on this. And so when I look at 2023, those are the things I'm looking at tactical things, I will of course, be wrong on all of those. And we'll accept that. I'm wrong. And so everyone should ignore everything I say, and make sure that they instead pay attention to what is going on with their kids, as opposed to listening to me talk about this. Zoe Amar 48:10 Thank you so much, Jeff, what a great note to end on. Absolutely. I've learned so much to see how my kids are using tech money. Paul has to say, thank you so much for sharing your insights today. And for that really great summary in particular of how the whole content space is being disrupted in handling Disney to get to grips with that. So thank you so much for coming on today. I really enjoyed it. Jeff Nathenson 48:35 Thank you. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Zoe Amar 48:39 Thank you so much to Jeff for his time. And his wonderful insight into how to reach lens Ed. Paul Thomas 48:45 It was quite fascinating. And as a sort of a sports watcher. I was particularly interested in all of the stuff around how people are consuming sports content. And had a really good example of that of the weekend. Watching football with my kids where we had multichannel approach. We had a stream on the TV, we had Twitter in the background, I had the radio on and they were getting updates from from an app all at the same time. It made it a bit chaotic, but it was good fun. There's only a lot of talk about tick tock any plans to join the Tick Tock party. Zoe Amar 49:20 I do occasionally go on there when I'm doing benchmarking for clients. But no, I'm not planning to become a tick tock anytime soon. Paul Thomas 49:27 I do have access I do have an account. I haven't posted any videos but I primarily set it up to keep an eye on what the kids in the house are doing on the channel of that kid because one of them doesn't have access because they're not old enough yet. But yeah, watching watching what they do on tick tock is is a revelation in itself. But now I don't think you're going to see many videos of me dancing or living out my life on Tik Tok just yet. Thanks for joining this episode. You can find us on Twitter We're at Starts at the Top one and you can also email us at starts at the top@gmail.com Starts at the Top Tiktok channel TVC. Zoe Amar 50:08 If you listen to us on Apple podcasts or anywhere, please do rate and review that is would be brilliant. It all helps with our visibility and reach will speak to you again in a couple of weeks. Speak to you soon Jeff Nathenson 20:14 They can't get a hold of it. It's harder to find right now. Transcribed by https://otter.ai