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Michelle P. King: The worst way you can manage a hybrid
workforce is transactional. You can't command and control and
tell people what to do when they're working from home, you
gotta coach, you gotta delegate, you gotta support, you
gotta provide feedback.
Zoe Amar: Welcome to a brand new episode of Starts at the Top our
podcast about leadership, digital and change. I'm Zoe
Amar.
Paul Thomas: And I'm Paul Thomas. Our podcast is all about
leadership and brings you interviews with leaders who we
believe are driving a positive change in the world.
Zoe Amar: Change comes in many forms and we're equally
interested in speaking to leaders who are making
incremental change and shifting the dial within their
organisations. As we are speaking about huge systemic
changes that impact the world of work. The driving force of our
podcast is to share these stories across sectors and
industries so that we can all learn from each other.
Paul Thomas: Our next three episodes are focused on books
and interviews with their authors. Whilst we've approached
these conversations from a leadership perspective, not all
of these books are leadership books. The first up this week is
our discussion with Dr. Michelle Penelope King, author of How
Work Works: The subtle Science of getting ahead without losing yourself.
Zoe Amar: And next week, we have a conversation with Mathilda
Della Torre, the author and founder of Conversations from
Calais, which has refugee stories from the Calais camps.
And the following week, we're sharing our discussion with
Samuel Kasumu, one time adviser to Boris Johnson, and author of
The Power of the Outsider: Journey of discovery.
Paul Thomas: So Zoe, Michelle's book covers some topics that
we've covered on the podcast quite extensively, namely the
changing work environment, certainly since Covid, but also
about a new younger generation entering the workplace and
starting with their careers.
Zoe Amar: Yeah, I thought Michelle was really fascinating
of the subject of leadership and the importance of networks and
also how organisational culture is really shifting and changing
now post lockdown. What I really enjoyed hearing about from
Michelle was about how leaders need to create work cultures
that are truly focused on fulfilment, understanding what
employees want from work, and what they're looking for from
the workplace today. And that's also going to be a theme we're
exploring in with another of our upcoming guests soon.
Paul Thomas: I think it was also good to explore the nature of
leadership with Michelle and ask her the question: can leadership
be taught? Or is it something that some of us have, and some
of us just don't, and no spoilers as to Michelle's views,
but I think there are natural leaders in all walks of life.
But I'd certainly agree that it's wrong to say that it can't
be built into us as we grow professionally. And personally.
Zoe Amar: It's a really interesting topic. Well, maybe
we could just very briefly just for a moment, just pause and
discuss that. I mean, you must have had at some point in your
career, someone take you aside and say, Paul, you've got
potential as a leader or Paul, as a emerging leader, have you
thought about this? Was there a sort of moment where that
happened for you?
Paul Thomas: I don't know. I don't know. I think I mean,
well, you know, apart from at scouts, I think I was a sixer
for a little bit of time that I was there. So you know, that's
literally the leader, of a little group of... can't
remember what it's called? Perhaps one of my weaknesses is
also a strength. I find it hard to let go of control. So I think
what I find is, in my first sort of proper grown up job, I ended
up as a client services manager, because well... people were
leaving, people left, I wasn't the only one left, but people
left and I sort of automatically felt like I could step up into
that role. And so I think I've got that sort of drive in me to
step up and say, Here I am. I'm willing to sort of take the
lead. But I wouldn't necessarily have put myself forward as a
natural leader. I mean, I think you and I, both really, are a
little bit on the introverted side. So there's a sense of, it
takes a lot of energy for me to step up into that type of role,
but to a degree, I guess, but then I think it was really in
my, in my sort of big, grown up job that I was in for 10 years,
as you know, we talked about it before, Grant Thornton. And that
was where I was sort of working, sitting down looking at their
competency framework and saying, Hold on a minute, I think I
should be higher up this because I'm doing all of these things.
And, you know, you sort of recognise well I'm doing all
these leadership type things and didn't even know I was doing
them. That was the point where I said, Well, hold on a minute,
surely I should be promoted. And my manager at the time went
Yeah, you're right, you probably should. How about you...?
Zoe Amar: Interesting... That's fascinating. And the reason why
I just wanted to talk about this briefly, is, I think I've had a
kind of similar trajectory, in some ways. I mean, when I was
young, I would never, ever, ever have thought of myself as a
leader, particularly when I was working in the city, which was
before I came across to the charity sector. Never, never in
a million years. And it was really only when I came across
to the charity sector, and I started to get maybe a little
bit more established in role after I'd been doing stuff there
for a while. And people started talking to me about leadership
and 'I see you as lead', and that sort of thing. And it felt
very alien actually, to start with, not because those people
weren't being lovely, but because I just genuinely did not
see myself in that way. And one of the reasons why I think I've
kind of carved out this weird portfolio career that I have, is
because maybe I just don't see myself in that conventional
template of leadership, not that there's anything wrong with
that. And I'm sure there's something to do with that being
a woman of colour and wanting to create my own path in some ways.
And also, because I'm, you know, was never really sure when
someone like me would fit into a conventional leadership path
anyway. But it's interesting is it because I think your point
about leaders being born, not made or made not born even,
depending on your perspective, there's a lot of crossover there
with our conversation with Michelle, or how do we create
leaders? How do we nurture them? How do we find them? And
obviously, that topic of what does leadership look like now?
Really similar to some things we discussed with Sarah Hughes and
also a topic, we will be exploring more in the future hopefully.
Paul Thomas: Yeah, I think it's going to definitely come up time
and time and time again, isn't it? And I think it's different
for everyone. But you know, there are those people that
certainly in the world of sports, you know, obviously
interested in the world of sports, where people say, a
natural born leader, and you actually wonder where it has
come from. And I don't think it is always natural, because, you
know, you start off in the sporting world, and in the lower
leagues in, you know, grassroots football and stuff like that,
for example. It's really hard to see some of that emerging. And
whispered quietly. I see some of that in my own son, who has
recently been made captain of his team. And because he's not
afraid, I think it's basically finding that voice and bit not
being afraid to have an opinion, and talk about things and start
to show those qualities that sort of get recognised and get
you propped up as a leader or in a leadership position. I think
the danger is sort of accepting that person, as the leader, and
then ignoring those traits or the traits that other people
within the team are starting to show around that thing. And you
see that in sports and you see it in the working life as well.
So I think it's a topic that we'll continue to tap into on
this podcast.
Zoe Amar: Now for our conversation with Michelle.
We are very excited to welcome Dr. Michelle Penelope King to
the podcast today. She is a globally recognised expert on
inequality and organisational culture. Based on over a
decade's worth of research, Michelle believes that we need
to learn how workplaces work so we can make them work for
everyone. She is host of the popular podcast The Fix, and
she's also the author of the best selling award winning book,
The fix How to overcome the invisible barriers that are
holding women back at work. Her second book, How Work Works The
Subtle Science of Getting Ahead Without Losing Yourself will be
published imminently in the UK with Harper Collins. And we're
going to talk to you about that today. Michelle is the founder
of The Culture Practice, a global DEI consultancy that
provides leaders and employees with the assessment, development
and inclusion coaching needed to build cultures that value
difference, and we're going to be talking about that theme as
we go through our conversation today. She's also a senior
adviser to the UN Foundation's Girl Up Campaign, which enables
young women to navigate and overcome the barriers to their
success. Before this, Michelle was the director of inclusion at
Netflix. And before that, she was the head of UN Women's
Global Innovation Coalition for change, which included managing
over 30 private sector partnerships to accelerate the
achievement of gender equality and women's empowerment.
Michelle has two decades of international experience working
in the private sector. And in each of her roles, Michelle
lends her expertise to advancing workplace cultures that work for
everyone. Michelle is a published award winning academic
as well and clearly a woman of many talents. And we're looking
forward to hearing more about all of that today. Michelle,
welcome to Starts at the Top.
Michelle P. King: Thank you so much for having me. What a long
bio goodness, thanks Zoe that's very embarrassing. Thank you
very much.
Zoe Amar: Not at all we wanted to do you justice. We're so
pleased that you're here today. And thank you for coming. I'd
love to talk about your new book. It's very exciting. So
let's begin at the for coming. I'd love to talk about your new
book. It's very exciting. So let's begin at the beginning.
Can you tell people a bit about what the book is about and what
prompted you to write it.
Michelle P. King: Sure. So How Work Works. The subtitle is The
Subtle Science of Getting Ahead Without Losing Yourself is
really a book that explains the how of work. So what I mean by
that is, you know, most of the books on how to get ahead will
focus on what you need to do, right. And it's very much a win
lose mentality, this idea that you work harder if you hustle
more, that's how you can get ahead. And actually, as a
researcher, having spent the better part of 20 years
researching organisations, I've really looked at, you know, what
does it take to get ahead? So we all know people in
organisations, who don't really have the performance goals, or
the background or the education to get the promotion they get
and, you know, leaves a lot of questions like, how did they get
there. And so for me, I wanted to understand that and I
researched it, I had a good look at it. And what you find is
companies have all the formal processes in place policies in
place around how they promote how they develop. But the
reality is, all of this tends to happen in the informal. And so
for me with How Work Works, I wanted to show, you know, not
only how this has happened in the past, so in many ways, it's
created a tonne of inequality in workplaces, but also how the
world of work has changed. And so how, you know, we need to
manage our interactions with one another, we need to manage the
informal side of working life, quite literally how we undertake
our tasks, because the new world of work is more informal is more
ambiguous, and it's only going to get, you know more so. So we
have to really invest in understanding how we work
together. Because there are very few jobs where you can go in and
just do a task, and variably to you know, do your job, you have
to work with others. In fact, it's about 83% of jobs require
some form of collaboration. And so knowing how to work with
others really enables what you can achieve. So I always say how
is more important than than what you do. So we need to focus on
that and understand it. So this book already tries to reveal the
four ways in which workplaces work, and you know why that
matters for your career success.
Zoe Amar: And that's really bringing that conversation about
the how of work out into the open, isn't it in a way that I
think is very refreshing. And do you think that workforces now,
people working in organisations, do they have greater
expectations on transparency?
Michelle P. King: I think so. I mean, I think one of the
challenges I just want to put in context for your listeners, is
whenever you hear things like informal or persuading or
managing how work gets done, it always sounds a bit, a little
bit devious, right? Because we're associated with things
like office politics, so we start to think of this in terms
of that 1950s workplace where it's cloak-and- dagger and
people are doing things behind and people's backs. And it's all
about who you know. And often we associate that with the old boys
network. And all of those sort of images and associations are
actually correct. Like in the 1950s, the informal side of
working, was dominated by white men in particular, there were a
whole bunch of informal rules for how you network, how you
collaborate, that did exclude a huge percentage of the
population. That has changed. So I'll give you a quick example,
in the book, one of the areas of the four areas we focus on
really looks at informal networks. So we all know about
informal networks, we all know about how important they are for
career success. If your listeners don't know 70% of all
jobs come through the informal network and are not even
advertised, right. So it matters, like who you know, and
how you manage those connections matters. In the 1950s, you could
just informally network with white men, and be okay, because
white men made up you know, the majority of leadership
positions, that has changed as workplaces become more
demographically diverse, probably one of the worst things
you can do is only you know, network with people who look
like the dominant group. So diversifying your network is
arguably one of the most important things you can do in
terms of managing your employability in the future. So
that's one way that it's changed. And so yes, absolutely.
For a lot of people they feel like in the past, it wasn't
transparent, because it wasn't. The reality is today, though,
how workplaces are functioning is they are more informal, they
are more ambiguous. And so this book aims to actually bring to
light or what is the informal look like, from a scientific
basis, what is it when we're talking about informal? How does
that function? And more importantly, how can we do this
in a way that is more equitable, and that is ultimately will
benefit us. Because I think in the past, you know, while those
systems might have worked to keep certain people in positions
of power, was actually largely very detrimental to
organisations. So I can share examples of that as well. But I
think it actually did more harm than good. And a great example
of that today is, you know, I had a white male in a leadership
position, I was coaching last week who has just lost a job, he
cannot reach out to anyone in his informal network for, you
know, future jobs, because he hasn't been managing it and
everybody in his informal network looks like him. And he,
you know, just hasn't got that diversity in his network to
really help them access jobs. And we know how important it is
to manage that. So he's an example of someone who hasn't
invested in his informal network and where he has largely, people
similar to him in his organisation at the same level,
that actually can't really help them with access and jobs. So
diversifying networks, just a great example of the way in
which we need to make a lot of the informal side of working
life all transparent.
Zoe Amar: Amazing, yeah, I think that's, that's absolutely
fascinating. And you talked about those kinds of different
pillars, those different pathways, which I know is such a
big theme of the book, can you tell people in a bit about what
those are and what people need to be doing about them?
Michelle P. King: Sure. So I mean, I've touched on informal
networks, but I feel like we could do one whole podcast
episode on that. And if we have time, I'd really like to talk
through the tangible things people can do to grow their
informal network just because it is so important. And you know,
for a lot of people, they're even thinking, well, what is my
informal network, so we can talk through that. But informal
networks have a starting point. And then the second piece around
this is what I noticed in my own research was what I call
informal information sharing. That's just a fancy term for
people sharing bits of information that either help you
do your job or help give you some form of advice or help
provide some form of social support. And what you find is
generally your ability to access informal information is going to
build your self awareness. So we know that about 90% of people
lack self awareness, 90, nine, zero. And why does that matter?
It matters because people tend to either overestimate how good
they are, or underestimate how good they are. Now, if you're an
underestimated listening to this, where you consistently
think you're worse than you are, I've got good news, you can
become self aware by doing some of the practices that I'll share
in a minute. But if you're an over estimator, it's a lot
harder. So over estimators simply aren't open to feedback,
right? So self awareness is really understanding how you see
yourself and then how others perceive that in terms of your
behaviours, and the impact those behaviours have and knowing how
to close that gap. And the problem with over estimaters is
that they're just not open to the feedback in order to do
that. Why does that matter? Because just having one over
estimater on your team can reduce your team's performance
by 50%. And the reason for that is because that person is going
to be quite belligerent. They're going to have their idea you
know, they're what we call in academia, the competent jerks.
We all know the people who just refuse to take feedback, don't
modify their behaviour, aren't managing how they come across,
and it can derail a whole team's, sort of morale. So
that's, you know, I think what we've got to recognise a lot of
us aren't self aware and the hierarchy of an organisation,
the more sort of challenges you've got with it. So in
academia, one of the terms we use is we call it the CEO
disease, because leaders really lack access to a lot of that
feedback, and the type of feedback they get not really
helpful, and so they don't moderate their behaviour. So
self awareness is a big one. And then I think the third piece is
really around informal development. So you know, 70% of
all learning happens on the job, we've really got to get to a
place where we start to manage how we're learning because
that's gonna affect our employability. So your potential
in terms of how far you can progress up an organisational
hierarchy, or the types of projects you can take on if you
just want to stay at the level you're at all depends on your
ability to learn. And the challenge is, most of us don't
even realise it's our job, right? Your workplace is not
going to give it to you. So if 70% of learning happens
informally, happens on the job. And if social and emotional
skills are what we need to develop in this new world of
work, we've got to know how do we do that on the job. So the
book shares how to do that. And then finally, I'd say one of the
most important things to think about is how you're managing
your advancement. So I don't just mean this in terms of like
getting to the next level, I think it's recognising the world
of work has changed. And how it's changed really requires
that you manage your employability both within and
outside of the organisation. So most people don't sort of
actively manage their employability and think about
the way in which they've got to invest in in their career, so I
share you know how to do that. And importantly, how to find
meaning at work. Because something we don't talk about,
it's become really uncool is how you know workplaces, they're the
place we spend the most number of hours, right in a day, next
to sleeping, work is number one, right, in terms of waking hours,
over a lifetime. And for some reason, it's become uncool to
care about work. And for me, what we've got to recognise is,
you know, your workplace can be meaningful, no matter what you
do, even if you do a mundane task, and it needs to be
meaningful, nine out of 10 of us would forego a significant
portion of our earnings. In fact, as much as we spend on
housing, for greater meaning at work, and meaning really comes
through connections that comes through understanding how do you
build your own fulfilment in your workplace, even if you hate
your boss, even if you hate what you do. And so I think somehow,
in the conversations around workplaces, we've lost the point
that we are our workplaces. If you hate going to work every
day, I've got bad news for you, you're contributing to that. So
this book really shares how you can find meaning how you can
take back some of that control, and actually enjoy going to work
which is a big part of all of us.
Zoe Amar: And the world of work, I mean is obviously changing
hugely, isn't it, you talk there about how employees and what
they want and their expectations to change as much as what they
need to do. And we're really seeing this plate shifting
nature of how work is beginning to evolve post pandemic with the
drive of hybrid working the need for greater inclusion, also the
rise of AI and you talk about all of those things in your book
as well. If we could all get into a time machine now, how do
you think the world of work is going to change over the next
few years?
Michelle P. King: Well, so a couple of things. I think this
framing is quite important for the audience. I say the world of
work has actually already changed. So I share this great
little story about a monk who's calling out to a Zen master on
the other side of a riverbank. And he says, you know, how do I
get to the other side and the monk looks left looks right.
Sort of pauses for a minute and then yells back, you are on the
other side. And I think the point of this for me is for the
audience to take away we are on the other side, the automation
is here, right? And our ability to navigate this new world of
work is really critical. So what do I think people need to take
away in terms of how do you prepare, I think the first thing
is recognising you're going to work with people who do not
share your background, you're going to work for people who do
not share your background in terms of demographic
characteristics. So it's really important that you understand
how to bridge your differences of others that requires advanced
social and emotional skills. The second piece is even with the
rise of technological skills, studies show that those roles in
particular, they need advanced social and emotional skills,
because technical roles in particular, those individuals
are not going to work just on their own, they're going to have
to collaborate, right? I think the third thing is recognising
workplaces are going to become much more informal. So we're
seeing a reduction in hierarchies, organisations are
becoming flatter and arguably one of the most at risk roles
and organisations are mid level managers. So those roles are
disappearing, and you're getting a lot more self managing teams,
particularly in a hybrid work environment, right. And we know
you know, people have debates over hybrid. It's really
exhausting. I have a whole rant on that in the book. The reality
is hybrid is here to stay there are a tonne of costs associated
with that, one of which is more ambiguity. So it becomes a lot
harder to navigate a hybrid environment because you're not
getting a whole person's context, you don't know the
morning they've had at home, you can't see the environment that
they're in, right, you can't read all their social cues, it's
a lot harder to do that informal stuff in a hybrid environment.
So all of this boils down to the fact that workplaces are
becoming more ambiguous, more informal and requiring a greater
level of social and emotional skills. So the message to the
audience if you want to future proof your career focus on
social and emotional skills, which the book really takes you
through right, four ways to do that. I think anyone who's
sitting here going, how true is this...? 75% of your career
success depends on your social and emotional skills, not on
your technical skills, technical skills account for 25%. One of
the reasons for that, it's very easy to learn, you go on a
course. And you can learn the technical skills, right, you can
brush up on that you can't do that with social emotional
skills, you can go on as many courses as you want. But those
skills are learned through practice, they learn through
trial and error through observing through getting
feedback from your peers. So that's why you've got to invest
more in developing those skills,
Zoe Amar: Are we preparing young people enough for this, do you
think for this society, because what you've described there is
this very ambiguous shape shifting landscape, for goodness
knows when I came into the workforce, 20 years ago, I found
it hard enough to read the intentions of, say, senior
partners in the firm that I was working, let alone with all
these new developments that we were seeing now and you describe
it so well in your book, I mean, as a parent and Paul as a parent
as well, what should we be doing to prepare our young people for
this, you know, quite challenging, very sophisticated
world of work that they're going to be joining in a few years
time.
Michelle P. King: So Zoe, I have really bad news, really bad
news... so the bad news is I just did a study on Gen Z and
millennials. So 1000 from the UK 1000 from the US on exactly this
question. Right? So really trying to understand their
ability to navigate ambiguity, variability, navigate informal
social and emotional skills, how comfortable are they? So a
couple of things, the report is actually being released in I
think, a week and a half.
Zoe Amar: Ooh, interesting.
Michelle P. King: Yeah, well, I'll share some of the
highlights so I think that the main sort of highlight and
takeaway is that there's a higher rate of social anxiety.
So Gen Z, millennials, in particular will say, look, we
think we've got the social skills we need to do our job,
employers are saying we don't think you do, right. And what
you're seeing is they believe that the skills they need to
navigate the social aspects of work, however, 9 out of 10,
millennials and Gen Z's actively avoid social interactions at
work because of social anxiety. So my point is social and
emotional skills are learned behaviours, right? They're
things we can develop and cultivate over time through
practice, if you're not engaging those skills, because you're
actively avoiding social situations, because they make
you anxious, you're not developing the skill sets.
That's why there's a discrepancy between what younger generations
believe the skills they believe they have and what employers
present. So that's one aspect. The second aspect is, it
logically follows that social and emotional skills happen in
the informal. So how comfortable is this generation with
informal? What we're seeing is they are less comfortable,
right? So there was a separate report that came out showing,
you know, particularly for millennials, they're a lot less
comfortable. There's sort of 70% or below average on their
ability to navigate ambiguity. So ambiguity is like, can you
solve problems that don't have a ready made answer? Are you
comfortable doing things without clear instructions, all of that?
So how does this show up for people at work? Well, a great
example of this is you'll get a millennial and I've just made
that cut off. So you'll get a millennial saying to manager,
hey, when you want that report by, right, and the boomer might
come out and say, Look, if you can get it to me by Tuesday,
that'd be great. Now to a boomer that says 5pm, Tuesday, that
report better be on my desk, right? That's the subtext of
what's being said what the millennial hears is, at some
point, next week, early next week, that'd be nice. Right? So
they might get it Wednesday, might get a Thursday. So that's
where you see the conflict show up. We're actually for
millennials and below, you need more explicit instructions, and
more explicit feedback. So we see those generations really
wanting regular, more regular explicit feedback on how they
are going. So why is this? Why are we seeing a decline of their
ability to manage ambiguity and the informal side? Social media.
So if we just think about dating and apps like Tinder or Bumble,
you know, back in the day, you would have to go to a bar, you'd
have to look at the social cues as to whether someone's looking
at you if they're even slightly interested to then decide if you
go over and talk to them and engage with them. Today, you
swipe left or right, I don't even know right, but you swipe
one of the way that's it. That's it. So the the ability to
develop some of those social skills has actually declined
right at a time where we actually need them now more than
ever, so I call this the ambiguity paradox. And the
challenge is, I think, managers from sort of that older
generation struggle to realise that not only do younger
generations not have the same skill sets, because they haven't
grown up in the same context. But they also don't realise what
younger generations need. So one of the more sort of shocking
statistics that came through was for this cohort. In my study,
what we found was for those participants, 75% of them said,
the number one cause of stress for them at work was their line
leader. So what we're seeing are managers are just not managing
this generation, and... or those two generations the way that
they need.
Paul Thomas: I think this is getting really into the crux of
why... it's a situation we're in at the moment, both Zoe and I,
as we said, we got kids around that age. And one of the things
we've noticed with our eldest is, this sense of, the pandemic
and lockdown really affected them in the way that I think,
home and the attributes of home became this really completely
safe place in more ways than one than it ever was before. You
know, we tried to keep creating a safe place as a parent, but
this was a safe place when the world was dangerous. And that
time, they missed out on those crucial years of school and
education, where it was transitioning from one school to
the other, those informal networks as friend networks that
they were creating all of that as suffered. And I think you're
exactly right, a lot of that is based around anxiety and the
social media aspect of it, they only communicate through a
device, they only communicate through a phone. And that sort
of juxtaposition of that generation going into a
workplace that's populated by people that just have no time
for that, the amount of times that we've heard that this
generation just isn't interested in hard work. It's not true at
all. It's just that they don't understand work in the same
paradigm as we do. It just exists differently. So I guess,
the book is, is going to help people towards this, but how do
you equip leaders to have that conversation with the people
that are entering their workplace and not just dismiss
it?
Michelle P. King: for emerging talents, it's written for
anybody who is looking to advance in their work. But in
particular, younger generations coming through, I think this is
a really helpful book because it shows you how the world of work
has changed. It shows you the new ways of working. I think for
managers, it's helpful because a lot of managers are leading in
that transactional command and control 1950s way that might
have worked in the 1950s, where people come in and just do one
task and leave. And so you're managing people who are just
doing a task. That's not the world we're in today. So the
world of work today is called the hyper social workplace,
right, to get anything done, you've got to work with other
people. So what I would say to managers in particular, is like,
you have to make sure that you are, you, yourself are investing
in self awareness. So if I, not only is the self awareness gap
big with graduates, but I argue the reason it's big with
graduates is because it's big with managers. So if I look at
mid level managers across the board on things that matter,
particularly to younger generations, you know, we look
at inclusion as an example, 45% of employees experiences of
inequality at work, are directly attributable to the line leader.
And again, there was a HBR study that came up the other day that
aligned with my findings, which found that 75% of mental health
challenges at work are directly attributable to the mid level
leaders, right. And what we're finding is we've got managers
who really don't know how to manage because organisations
have pushed this transactional way of leading, we're actually
the context has changed, the worse way you can manage a
hybrid workforce is transactional, you can't command
and control and tell people what to do when they're working from
home, you got to coach you got to delegate got to support, you
got to provide feedback, you've got to have a difficult
conversation. And those are things that managers by and
large, don't know how to do. So I would say if you're a manager
sitting there, and you're thinking, well, I want to do
this better. How can I actually get some feedback that's going
to help me understand how someone else is perceiving the
impact of how I'm managing? I would say the first thing we
know is if people aren't comfortable giving you feedback,
that's going to be a challenge. So one study came out that said,
if you just spend 15 minutes a day for 10 days, the 15 minutes
a day for 10 days, reflecting on the following three things. What
went well at work today? What could I, you know, what didn't
go so well? And what could I do differently? So maybe five
minutes on each question, you will increase your self
awareness by 23% in just 10 days, and that's because you're
taking time to reflect right and I think there's other studies
that show asking sort of why questions like why did that
millennial do that and get the report to me on Wednesday, it
must be because they lazy, really unhelpful. So you want to
shift from why questions to what questions, like, what could I
have done to get a different outcome? What would have been a
better way to do this? Right? And I think managers do spend a
lot of time in the why. And that's where the stereotypes and
biases and inequality creep in, rather than on what can we do
differently to make this work better? I think the second thing
is around feedback a lot of managers I've worked with, and
this is my anecdotal view, I really struggle with giving and
receiving feedback effectively. So in the book, I actually have
a model for how to do that. It's my ACM model, it's my gift to
your audience, which is if you are trying to give feedback, so
if we go back to the report problem of getting that not on
Tuesday at 5pm, as you wanted, I think managers, you know, A
stands for awareness, you want to make the person aware of the
impact their behaviour has, hey, you know what, you didn't get
that report, I thought I communicated that the impact
was, you know, we didn't get out on time. And we missed a
deadline with client. C stands for corrective action, like in
the future, what you know, what can we do to actually make sure
the deadlines are clear, that's where you're gonna get inside
on, P hey, I've not been clear enough for this person, they
need more clarity. And then M is moving on. So my biggest thing
for managers is they make it weird, right? They make it
weird. So they give the feedback, then the person gets
upset, then they're upset. And next thing, the person who's
giving the feedback is crying, like, the whole thing becomes a
drama. And I think, again, in that transactional world of
leading, where you just told someone what to do, you could
get away with just barking at them right for not getting the
report done. That's not the world we're in now. So managers
have to find a different way to do this. And I think managers
that are really effective at managing across generations,
give and receive feedback all the time, it's just how they
work. And they are open to it themselves. So they will use ACM
almost account for themselves before they've even kind of you
know, given someone else feedback. So the manager might
have said, hey, you know what, I didn't get on time, was I clear?
Was there something different I could do and then move on. So I
don't see enough of that with with managers. There's a lot of
generational blaming, rather than trying to understand
differences.
Paul Thomas: It's really interesting, because the way I'm
listening to you now I'm thinking, that's the way we have
conversations with our children. So I think there's a rebadging
of your book, that can be How Parenting Works, because it's
exactly that, those are the types of conversations we try to
have with our children. But it's funny because I used to do a lot
of work around getting people to invest in their informal
networks, through social media within organisations. And one of
the things that we always talked about there was this new
generation coming into the organisation with all of the
tools, they know how to do this, they're equipped with social
media, they're equipped with the phones, they're equipped with
all of that stuff. And that's really exciting to see how that
impacts on the world of work. But what they're met with is
this barrier of resistance, which is no, this is the way
things get done round here. This is the way that things have
always been done. And what you're saying here makes me
think that that's only going to increase and the less this
middle layer, that starts to think in that way that people
are going to young people are going to be entering
organisations all over the world going, I've got these great
ideas, and I want to be heard and just not. We've heard from
people on this podcast that they won't stick around, that
organisation will lose out in the long term because the young
people coming in who aren't listened to, will just go off
and do it somewhere else, do that work somewhere else where
they are accepted and where these organisations are open up
to that. So I think, you know, that's my sort of read on it's
exactly right, but they will move on, they're not going to
wait around for the organisation to get with the programme.
Michelle P. King: 100% Yeah, I mean, that's it. That's it in a
nutshell, they'll quit or they'll quietly quit, which I
think is just the worst thing in organisations. Quiet quitting, I
talk about at the end of the book, but that for me is such an
example of where we're at today. Like how and the interesting
thing about quiet quitting. So when someone comes up, does the
bare minimum leaves but actually isn't making a positive overall
contribution isn't contributing beyond just the task, you know,
that for me is a disengaged employee and the cost of that on
businesses... studies showing the cost and the interesting
thing is individuals think, well, I'm getting what I want,
right? I'm doing the bare minimum getting paid. Not true.
So actually, your mental health, your sort of morale, your
engagement, your fulfilment, it's negatively impacting you.
So I think what we have to recognise, again, is not
employee versus manager versus organisation. We're all in this
together because we want to go to work, we want to make a
contribution, we want to enjoy what we're doing and find some
meaning from it. Those are core fundamental psychological needs,
right? There's three of them. Like you want some autonomy and
freedom over what you do. You want some sense of competence
and mastery over your tasks, your ability to feel good about
what you're doing. And you want to make sure that in your
organisation, you have opportunities to connect with
others. Three core needs every single person has them in
different ways, different amounts in organisations, and I
think when we do quiet quitting or anything like that we forget
that actually we are a workplace and the person we're hurting is
ourselves. So I don't think it's also just about quitting either.
I think we have to start taking some ownership back on. Well,
how can I meet my needs? You know? And the reason I say this
is because it's quite likely you're going to work for someone
who's not great at managing, like, just the odds are that
those are the odds, right? I hate said, but I'm a researcher.
And that's what the data tells us. So it's more about well, how
do you navigate that if you're working for someone who's not
great? And you know, how do you still get fulfilment? How do you
still get mastery, and there are moments where people can quit,
but not everybody can afford to? So we have to find other ways to
make it work.
Zoe Amar: from it. And as a woman of colour, that chapter
really resonated with me. So you talked about how something as
simple as being ignored by colleagues, you know, so social
spaces in the workplace can lead to a 25% decline in someone's
performance on a team project. You also talked about how the
part of our brain that registers physical pain is activated when
people exclude us from social groups. And that, again, really
resonated with me because as a woman of colour, when I've been
in a situation, sometimes when I felt excluded in the workplace,
you feel it bodily, I would say as well as mentally. So for all
the leaders out there who do want to help their teams feel
that they've got that greater sense of belonging in the
workplace, what practical things can they do to create that?
Michelle P. King: What a good question... So this book, just
for the audience, it isn't like some manifesto on inclusion,
because I do talk about that on the first one, but as Zoe
shared, you know, we really do, I do go into belonging. And the
reason I go into belonging it's because it's a fundamental human
need, that drives a lot of our behaviours and interactions at
work. So, you know, thanks for sharing the impact that had
because you write this and you think, well, I don't know how
this is gonna land, you know. So it's great that you know, you
saw your experience in it. I think, for managers, the first
thing to recognise is, I get really frustrated with the view
that somehow diversity and inclusion is an add on right,
rather than like a core fundamental part of business.
And I do feel that current diversity and inclusion
initiatives have failed and have failed managers have failed
leaders in understanding and enrolling in particular the
dominant group, which was white men. So if I look at my own
work, my own research from my first book, it's very clear,
most of the initiatives we're putting in place do not work a
very expensive, like companies in the US, for example, spend 7
billion a year on DEI initiatives. And you know, what
we're finding is pretty consistently half of their
employee population at any one time feel some level of
isolation, disengagement exclusion in their workplace. So
we've got a lot of managers, a lot of backlash, particularly
out of the US now happening where people like can this DEI
stuff go away, when can we get on with real work, it excludes
men, exhausted with it, right. And the reality is, what we've
missed is this is the job of a leader. This is core business,
because workplaces are hyper social workplaces. So how we
work enables what we can achieve. So the productivity,
the safety, you know, the profitability of the
organisation, all depends on getting people to work
effectively together. And so for me, the starting point is
recognising this is my job. This isn't some magical add on. And
if I wasn't looking at it before, that's on me, because I
was leading in that transactional way and missing
the context of change. I think the second thing is to really
focus on the lived experience. So what do I mean by that? A lot
of leaders love looking at the numbers, right? How many women
do I have? How many racial ethnic minority women? How many
people with disabilities? Like give me the numbers... I'm here
to tell you, the numbers are an outcome, right? They're not an
input. So what do I mean by that? Workplaces, in a McKinsey
study, showed to have become more demographically diverse,
but less inclusive. So we're not even harnessing the value of the
diversity we're bringing into organisations so what are we
doing? So to really see the value of diverse perspectives to
get the innovation and the collaboration you want to seek
to get greater creativity, you know, you have to as an
organisation, invest in the lived experience. So
understanding, you know, how does a black woman experience
our team? What is it like for someone with a disability to
work in an office environment or to work virtually. How people
experiencing the team and for leaders they work for a culture
survey in order to know this. You don't need to do that. So
you can ask people so if you're listening to this, one way to
stop is I would encourage you again the self awareness gap we
just talked about, ask your team members these five questions,
you can do this in a group or one on one, and then play back
what you find. So the first question would be, you know,
what would a culture that really values people differences look
like? So what would a team environment look like? Well, we
really value individual differences, what would that
look like? And then the second question should be, you know,
what does inequality look like in a team environment? So how
does that show up discrimination? What does that
look like in how we're experiencing the organisation?
The third question should be, you know, what can we do over
the next 12 months to create an environment where we really
value differences? What would that look like? And then the two
hardest questions are, what am I not doing as a leader to create
that environment? And what do I need to stop doing as a leader
to create that environment? If every leader made it a practice
to regularly ask those questions, you would start to
see some major gains on, you know, how we're tackling the
inclusion experience. The problem is, leaders aren't
owning the agenda. That's why 46% of employees experiences of
inequality are directly attributable to line leaders
behaviour, leaders aren't leading. And as a result,
they're not creating cultures that are inclusive.
Zoe Amar: And as you say, that's such a key part of the job now
isn't. And if you were a leader, who was say, interviewing a
leader, who you think you're bringing into the organisation,
how do you really screen for that? Because what I love about
your questions, they're really tangible, practical things that
leaders can ask, as you say, there's so many people out there
just talking about DEI now aren't there, but if I'm a
leader who's trying to hire another leader, what can I ask
at the interview to find out if they're really committed to
creating that sense of belonging in their team?
Michelle P. King: So we could ask a lot of questions Zoe, but
I actually asked every leader this question when I was
interviewed for my role at Netflix, so the question is,
what do you do every day, to practice inclusion. And what I
found even in my own research, outside of, you know, when I'm
interviewing leaders to decide if I want to work in that
company, is most leaders cannot tell you. So when I did my PhD,
that was one of the questions and most leaders could not tell
me what they do, either on a daily basis on a regular basis,
to build an inclusive workplace or to practice inclusion or
to... they cannot give you a tangible thing. So you know,
this is where we see DEI or diversity and inclusion are
separate from what we do. It's actually, it is the job. So
leaders should be able to say, hey, these are the ways I'm
actively building collaboration in my team. These are the ways
I'm building a high performing team by getting people to share
their ideas and behave inclusively. These are the ways
I'm resetting what good looks like as a set of behaviours to
make sure people know this, and I'm gonna hold them accountable
to, these are the ways I'm managing people's experiences by
collecting their feedback, understanding, you know, how I'm
showing up, how I need to change, you know, what we need
to do as a team, to make sure we're building an environment
where people feel safe, people feel like they can contribute in
a culture that is inclusive employees are six times more
likely to innovate. This is the job of managers today. The
problem is it feels like nobody said that. And as a result,
managers still think it's literally managing by objectives
and walking around and, you know, that's what this whole
push to going back into the office is all about. It's what
we're comfortable. It's what we know, it's presenteeism, and
there is no relationship, the data, all the data will tell
you, there is zero relationship between presenteeism so how much
time I spend in the office and productivity. So in my first
book, I shared a wonderful study. It's a big study in
America that shows the most productive employees and
organisations are mothers and specifically mothers of two
children. As a mother of two children, I promise you, I know
why that is because I don't have the time to do anything other
than when I'm at work, work and produce and focus on it, right.
And so the problem is, I think we need to really upskill
managers to understand how to lead in this new world and
recognise this is their job.
Paul Thomas: Is part of the challenge here the
differentiation between what we call leaders and managers,
because we're talking about leaders, not just in this
conversation, but in our podcast generally, because we're talking
about leaders, not just in this conversation, but in our
podcast. Generally, we talk about leaders and leadership all
the time. And that's not a job title at all. Manager is a job
title. Leadership is a behaviour, it's a capability
Michelle P. King: Wow. Okay. I really disagree with all of
that you either have or you don't have. And we just put an
that. And so the reason I disagree with it is because
is... So we come back to research right, definitions are
episode out today with Ben Williams, CEO of Loopin and we
important. So what do we mean by leadership? If I ask you what
does a leader look like and you close your eyes and you imagine
have this exact conversation with him that leadership isn't
it, I want the audience to do this now unless you're driving,
is you're gonna picture a white middle class, heterosexual, able
learned behaviour within organisations. It's really, it's
bodied male who is dominant, assertive, aggressive,
competitive, and exclusionary. Don Draper, if you watch Mad Men
noticed, you have leadership ability, you don't have
and that show about the... that's the image, right? We've
all got an image of who this is, that is consistent across
leadership ability. So we're going to focus on you and not
operating environments, context geographies, over the last 30
years, in 97% of organisations, they have this deeply ingrained,
you. And actually the challenge here is that we have a whole
I've called into my own data success prototype, it's that
mental image of what good looks like when it comes to leading.
bunch of people who are called managers who are looked at as
So the reason it's unhelpful to say some people are just
naturally more leader like is what do we mean by leader like,
because leader like historically, is extremely
leaders and have no leadership capability whatsoever.
gendered. It's extremely racialized. It's extremely
classist. It's extremely ableist. And it's associated
with outdated ideas that actually no longer serve us. So
men need this freedom, by the way to deviate from that
standard more than anybody else. Because men, their masculinity
is tied to that outdated leadership standard that
actually doesn't serve them. So when men deviate from it, and
try to be more inclusive, more democratic and caring, they're
not only seen, as you know, deviating from it, and now
penalised because they're not conforming to this outdated
notion of what a leader looks like. So they're seen as less
leader like, but they're also seen as less of a man. Right?
Even though the context is changing, those behaviours are
more effective. So what we need to do is recognise while that
might have been the standard back in the 1950s, and my book
goes into historical reasons for how the standard came about,
what we have to recognise is the world of work has changed, that
standard no longer works. A leader today who is effective is
anyone from a demographic background who is inclusive,
democratic, caring, curious, like a leader who really engages
in behaviours that focus on managing the lived experience. I
would disagree with whoever you mentioned before that
absolutely, can you teach curiosity and practices
associated with it? Yes. Can you teach someone how to be
democratic, caring...? Absolutely. Are there people who
have sort of natural personality traits that might be better
suited to that way of leading, of course. But this idea that we
box people in you are naturally born a leader, absolute
nonsense, like leadership is contextual, you can learn it and
it's about understanding how do I lead in this new world of
work? One thing I will say is that if we go back to my earlier
point, that mid level managers are sort of leading
organisations, I would argue that you're absolutely correct.
So what do we mean by leader versus manager, if managers are
going, you've got a lot more self managing teams, I would
argue that most of us actually are going to have leadership
responsibilities. So I'll give you a quick example. A lot of
decisions around pay and performance ratings in
organisation studies are showing increasingly are going to be
made by your peers. So in self managing teams, the future pay
and promotion decisions are going to be up to your team to
give feedback and input into how well you're doing and whether or
not you deserve that bonus, or that promotion, I think is going
to be made much more by consensus. So arguably, we all
have a leadership role to play in demonstrating those new
attributes and the new sort of leader in this context, that is
hyper social.
Zoe Amar: This has been fascinating. Michelle, thank
you. So if we could just ask you one final question before we
wrap up. So if I'm a leader, and I'm listening to this, and I'm
thinking God, I really want to prepare my team for this new
world of work that's coming at us fast. What is the one thing
that they can start doing today that's going to make the biggest
difference?
Michelle P. King: Oh, what a good question. I think the
number one thing I would say, is focus on how your team is
working, rather than what your team is achieving or doing. So
try and get that reshift the balance from when you're in a
team meeting, don't just focus on the agenda, don't just focus
on the task. Let's talk about how are we going to do that. If
you have a project how are we going to make sure we've got
diverse perspectives on that to enable some of the innovation
and the diversity of thought? How are we going to make sure on
the team meeting, we're collaborating effectively, and
everybody's got an opportunity to talk? How are we going to
evaluate the way in which we're all showing up to ensure
effective collaboration, problem solving and creativity as we
work together to manage the how and get your teams to focus on
the how and this is true for setting goals. So when you set
your KPIs set goals around the house, and it's also true when
it comes to performance reviews, that when you give your team
feedback, don't just give them feedback on what their... nobody
wants to work with a competent jerk. So studies show people
would rather work with a lovable fool then a competent jerk. So
the reality is we want to work with people that are easy to
work with. And I think managers have to recognise the how really
matters, that matters in terms of your team's moral, all of
that. Everything we want is on the other side of how, to try
and shift that balance in terms of how you manage.
Zoe Amar: Everything we want is on the other side of how. I'm
going to get that made into a sign in neon and put on my
kitchen wall. Michelle, thank you so much. It's been brilliant
to talk to you today. We have loved hearing about the book.
Can you tell our listeners where they can get your book?
Michelle P. King: Yeah, sure. So I mean, all major retailers, but
Amazon's always a safe bet, particularly in the United
Kingdom. But all major retailers will stop the book. You can also
visit my website, michellepking.com. And all the
retailers are up there as well.
Zoe Amar: Wonderful and we'll include some links in the show
notes. Michelle, thank you so much. It's been wonderful to
chat to you. Thanks for coming on Starts at the Top.
Paul Thomas: Thank you very much.
Michelle P. King: Thank you Paul, such a privilege. Thank
you Zoe, have a good day.
Zoe Amar: Our thanks to Michelle for her time and sharing her
insights with the podcast. How Work Works is published by
Harper Collins and is out now. We will share the link in the
show notes.
Paul Thomas: Our next episode, as we said is going to be with
Mathilda Della Torre, who is author of Conversations from
Calais. You can support the podcast by leaving us a five
star review wherever you listen, whether that's Apple podcasts on
Spotify or Google.
Zoe Amar: And if you've enjoyed listening to this episode,
please do hit share and send it to someone it's made you think
of. Thank you for listening. Bye for now!
Paul Thomas: Thanks for listening. Bye!