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Soma Sara: This is a culture that allows violence to exist.
And you know, it's not just about those incidents of
violence of sexual assault. It's about everything else that is
allowing it to happen.
Paul Thomas: Welcome to a brand new episode of Starts at the Top
our podcast about digital leadership and change. I'm Paul
Thomas.
And I'm Zoe Amar we were delighted and privileged to
speak to a very exciting guest today. Soma Sara, author and
founder of everyone's invited. Paul, what did you think of this
conversation?
Well, where do I begin? I think it's probably the most nervous
I've been for any conversation that we've had on the podcast.
Zoe Amar: What Why was that just out of interest?
Paul Thomas: Well, I think the I think the content, I think you,
just go behind the scenes a bit. You sent me a message when we
were reading the book saying, you know, you okay, how are you?
How are you finding this? And I think my response was something
along the lines of well, it's not a massive surprise. I think
I'm fairly well read, I'd watch lots of TV and documentaries and
films and things like that. And you know, I've got my eyes
pretty much wide open. But still, by the time I got to the
book, I but by the time I got to the end of the book, my eyes
were welling truly open. And I think we had a discussion
straight after the episode about what happens next. And I found
myself evangelising the book quite a lot. Over the past
couple of weeks. I've given a copy to a client of mine. And
I've had somebody that I work with who's working on a big EDI
project at the moment to get a copy of the book. But all of
that added up to a bit of nervousness around it,
especially as the sort of the the obvious male in the room as
part of the discussion. I think a lot of this is about male
toxicity. Toxic masculinity. And I guess there was a part of me
that was reading it and feeling not defensive.
Maybe defensive, I don't know. But it was all adding up to
making me quite nervous. But the conversation was fantastic. And
Soma was absolutely a breath of fresh air. How did you feel?
Zoe Amar: Absolutely, I think she really is a breath of fresh
air. And I was so happy that we were able to get her on the
podcast of anyone who might be new to her work, you'll
certainly have come across everyone's invited before. You
might remember they absolutely exploded in the media in summer
2020. It's essentially an anti rape movement organisation which
began when they provided a forum for survivors focused on schools
to share their experiences. And I think that they've gone from
strength to strength since I mean, obviously someone has gone
on to be widely venerated, quite rightly, for the work that she's
doing. And in the interview itself, she talks about the
impact it has had, for example on how Ofsted now assess
schools, which is just a fantastic achievement to have.
So I'm really, really delighted that we managed to get some time
with her to find out a bit more about the story so far. And
where everyone's invited goes from here and also why
everyone's invited is a symptom of a wider culture that leaders
really need to be aware of, and what actions they need to take
in order to deal with misogyny in the workplace and wider
society.
Paul Thomas: Yeah, I think I think that It was part of the
challenge I felt going into this was, you know, we opened the
podcast by saying it's a podcast about digital leadership and
change. And it's not much digital in this apart from
setting up a website. And there's some really good stuff
on social media and how young people are living their lives
through their phones, which has been a focus of mine for a good
few months, but it's really, really shone a light on that
aspect of things. But yeah, why this podcast and why Soma? And I
think we sort of had that conversation at the end, didn't
we about where this sits for leaders now. And I think what I
was really shocked about looking at the examples on the not the
examples on the website, but on the every everyone's invited
website, where they share the the testimonies from schools,
and I mentioned all the schools that are included, or have been
included, where testimonials people come from, and what's
particularly shocking about that list is that it starts with
hundreds of infant schools. And you suddenly get to the point
where you think what, why is this relevant for leaders? Well,
within organisations, we asked her about this, but within
organisations, businesses, whatever sector, I think leaders
have to think that this has happened, or something like this
has happened in their workplace is happening, or will happen.
And therefore, I think it becomes an essential part of
every leaders toolkit, if you like, for how to sort of how to
lead in the in 2023. And beyond.
I think it's that important, hence giving copies to clients
and thinking about how do I do more of that? Can I buy some
copies and donate them to our local school? How would that go
down in a school that, you know, might not be expecting 10 copies
of everyone's invited but should probably put it in their
library? So it sparked a whole bunch of questions for me, but I
think that's why, you know, if anyone's wondering why, you
know, we talking about this on your digital leadership podcast?
Well, that's exactly why I think it's, I think it's essential
that leaders really do think about this.
Zoe Amar: Exactly. And we all know from our conversations with
each other near the work that we do, advising organisations that
we do not live in an equal society, we absolutely live at a
time when there is so much more work to do in order to create
more inclusive spaces. And that includes workplaces as well.
That's why leaders need to know about this stuff. Yeah. And I
think the book will be more than food for thought for any leader
that's got questions about this. So I would urge we will include
links to the to the book and where to buy it online. But I
would urge anyone or anyone I'm working with is going to hear
about it. But I would urge any other leaders that listen to
this conversation and have an interest to go and pick up a
copy of the book and, and really absorb it.
And we'd love to hear what our listeners think of this episode.
We know there is a lot of quite heavy stuff to think through
from this interview some stuff that really needs to be heard,
though, and we encourage you to get in touch with us and let us
know what you think of our conversation with Soma. And of
course the book as well.
So now for a conversation with Soma. If we haven't been clear
up to this point, please be aware that although there are no
specific examples shared, the following conversation includes
mentions of sexual assault and rape, and may be triggering. So
please do proceed with caution. We'll be including a link to
some resources that could help you at the end of this
interview, and also in the show notes as well.
In June 2020, Soma Sara founded, everyone's invited an anti rape
movement organisation, which allows survivors of rape culture
to share their stories through testimonies anonymously on their
website and Instagram profile. Soma has been included in
British Vogue Vogue 25, one the 2021 Harper's Bazaar activist of
the Year Award, and was included in the BBC 100 Global list of
inspiring and influential women of 2021. She has also written
for the Times, The Telegraph, The I Paper, Tortoise media, and
the Daily Express. Soma Welcome to Starts at the Top. We are so
thrilled to have you here.
Soma Sara: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited
and I really appreciate it
Zoe Amar: It is our absolute pleasure. We can't wait to hear
more about the book as we go through the conversation today.
So can we begin at the beginning? So obviously, you've
been through this really phenomenal several years as
everyone's invited was, was started. So can you take us back
to the beginning to that moment when you decided to set up
Everyone's invited?
Soma Sara: Yes, so it was back in June 2020. And I was
finishing up University and completing my English degree at
UCL. And it was during lockdown, actually, and I was finishing my
finals, and it was all online. And I've been having a lot of
discussions and conversations with close friends.
And you know, getting to uni and kind of reflection and looking
back and realising Wow, this is actually not okay, this is not
normal. This is not okay. And how, you know, like questioning
why that was normal. And, yeah, so I think it came with, like,
age and maturity, and I guess having a moment to really pause,
which was kind of in lockdown as well.
And, yeah, so it was, yeah, that realisation and then I guess,
maybe anger and frustration and, you know, feeling you know that?
Yeah, feeling like it was really challenging and traumatic to go
through and, you know, having a sense of just wanting to talk
about it, and that's what I did, I shared my story on Instagram,
and I shared some of my experiences. And I, I spoke to
this kind of idea of a culture, a rape culture, where thoughts,
attitudes and beliefs in society have the effect of normalising
and trivialising sexual violence.
So I know rape culture as a term might sound a little bit scary
or intimidating or extreme to some people, because I obviously
the word rape is invoking violence, and it's taboo. And
you know, it's really stigmatised. But what it's
actually saying is, you know, this is a culture that allows
violence to exist. And, you know, it's not just about those
incidents of violence of sexual assault, it's about everything
else that is allowing it to happen. So it's the behaviours,
the attitudes, the way we treat each other, the objectification,
the media, the language that we use, you know, what we're
listening to what we're watching what we're consuming, the way
that women and girls are portrayed in film and in media,
the way the you know, girls are treated and spoken about. And
then that's also bleeding into the behaviours and how we're
treating each other and dehumanisation. And then, you
know, sexual harassment, and stalking and cat... you know, it
goes on and on. So it's kind of this incremental culture where
everything is connected. And there are these gateway
behaviours.
And then it's also the victim blaming, and the lack of
volition to believe survivors when they speak out and the
invalidation of their stories. And it's the enabling, and
people doing nothing that creates this, you know, this
culture that allows rape to happen.
And unfortunately, this is not rare. It happens all the time.
It's one in three. And, you know, this statistics and the
facts of I guess, the reality of the situation is staggering once
you confront it. So I think it's quite challenging for people to
really sorry, I've caught going on such a tangent, but um, yeah,
so I guess I've really segwayed from the original question, but
I shared this story and a lot of people resonated with it, a lot
of my communities and my peers, and they started sharing this
with me.
Zoe Amar: Everything you said really resonates with me
somewhere. And I think what was really brutal and very necessary
about your book, and also the amazing work that you've done is
just as you were talking there and from your book to maybe
really think about how those first year is when you are
starting to go out into the world as a teenager, and really
formative time on a, and then if violence becomes really
normalised and embedded in those first experiences of
relationships. That's kind of horrifying, isn't it?
Soma Sara: Yeah. And I think it just kind of contributes to a
cycle, you know, cycles of violence, and that kind of, I
guess, standard, being accepted as the normal and you know, it
becomes difficult to challenge because you don't have an
understanding of something that's healthy or, you know, a
loving and equal and healthy dynamic within relationships.
And yeah, I think it just it again, it perpetuates those
cycles of abuse. And I also think, experiencing that, those
kind of things so young, you know, it's an incredibly
vulnerable and formative time, your kind of brain is developing
your body, you know, you're changing, you're growing. And
you're so young. And, you know, the research shows that trauma
stays with you, and it can really impact the trajectory of
your life, especially in childhood trauma, it can kind of
transform your brain chemistry and, you know, you develop, you
can develop really severe mental health, mental health disorders,
and anxiety and depression and PTSD. And this really impacts
your life. And you know, it's not something that just goes
away, it's something that you kind of have to learn to live
with. And that's, I guess, what I'm really what I was really
trying to convey in the book is, and also obviously, with
platforming these stories, it's all about showing, flipping the
script and platforming the survivor perspective and
platforming that these things that happen, really can destroy
people's lives and really have an impact on them for years to
come. Whether it's you know, being unable to, you know,
finish school, pass your GCSEs, flunking out of university, you
know, falling into addiction falling into crime falling into,
you know, really bad, abusive toxic relationships. And it's
basically, you know, it can lead to, you know, suicide and early
death. So it's really this kind of ripple effect that can, you
know, it's so, I think the impact is, is so it's vast, and
I think it's really important to, to emphasise that.
Zoe Amar: We're bringing this really important conversation
out into the open aren't you. And that's what I think is so
liberating, and so sort of necessary about it, because some
of the types of conversations that you you talk about on
everyone's invited and also through the book as well.
Previously, before the incredible work that you you've
done, I feel like a lot of those conversations happen behind
closed doors between women talking to each other and
saying, Oh, this, this thing happened to me. And it it didn't
feel right. And, you know, that felt wrong, and Was it my fault,
and all those things that we all go through? And that's what I
think is so wonderful about the work you've done that you're
taking all of this, this awful stories that have happened and
and shining this light on it and saying, Look, this isn't right,
this needs to change. So you launch, everyone's invited, and
obviously, that was huge. I remember that blowing up. It was
all over the Daily Mail. Every single newspaper was all over
social media. What was it like to be at the centre of that?
Because obviously, I hadn't met you at the time, but it looked
like a massive media storm.
Soma Sara: Yeah, I mean, it was totally surreal. And unexpected.
And, I mean, I could never have imagined that it would have
reached that point so quickly, and unexploded in that way and I
guess, unleashed this tidal wave of, of stories of people sharing
people speaking out and, and talking about these incredibly
vulnerable and really traumatic in many cases, these, you know,
these many get the worst moment of people's lives in some cases.
And I think it was a very, it was a very intense time, very
emotional time, but I think it was almost like, I felt like
this is like, you know, we have been given Being this
microphone, we've been given this microphone I, you know,
myself and my team, my organisation, I at the time, it
was just kind of a group of activists and a group of
friends. But we've really felt, you know, we've got to make the
most of it, we've got to make the most of this opportunity and
do our best to platform these stories and showcase, you know,
these experiences and shine a light and and expose rape
culture. And to do this with empathy, compassion and
understanding. And yeah, so I think at the moment, it was
almost like, I don't have any other choice, but to you know, I
felt something inside you just kind of comes and you're like,
this is like, you just have to do it. And I think it really, I
think it was, it was very stressful. It's felt like a lot
of pressure and huge responsibility. But there was a
huge amount of support and incredible people, just in my
own life, supporting me and my team, my family, my friends, but
just publicly widely, you know, the journalists, the media, the
public, was so engaged. And I think, you know, we were kind of
in this momentum and being lifted and pushed forward. And I
think it just goes to show how important this issue is, and how
everyone is affected by it. You know, it caused a storm, because
it is so relatable. I mean, yeah, and, and especially for my
generation, I think it really hit home with, you know, young
people, people in education, but then obviously, their parents as
well, who are, yeah, I mean, an older generation who have
children. And if I guess in the early days, a conversation was
very focused around schools and university, so it was engaging
across, you know, across generations. And, and also, not
just about, you know, parents worrying about their children,
it was issues, you know, that affect everyone of all ages. And
I think every woman kind of has a story or has something has
something that's they've experienced in life that
probably has left them changed and slightly traumatised in some
way. That is kind of related to misogyny, rape, culture, sexism,
sexual violence. And I mean, it's a really sad, devastating
reality, when you begin to confront the scale and the
universal prevalence of sexual violence in society and in the
world.
Zoe Amar: I totally we agree with that. Absolutely. I think
everyone does have a story like that. And having finished your
incredible book a few days ago, one of the most shocking things
about it to me was that it wasn't shocking, in the sense
that, as you say, this violent sense of violence, this
experience of violence is so prevalent, isn't it?
Soma Sara: Yeah. And I mean, that makes me think about, you
know, something that yesterday I was in a school, and I our
organisation delivers education now and one of the kind of
moments and one of the presentations we do probably in
most of our presentations, actually is we talk about the
Ofsted report that was triggered after everyone's invited
exploded, they had a national review in schools. And one of
the findings is that nine out of 10 girls experience it
experience unsolicited dick pics and cyber flashing, and nine out
of 10 girls are victims of sexist and misogynistic name
calling and, and that sexual abuse online and sexual
harassment had become totally normalised in schools and that
they were universal experiences in schools. And we show this
every time to the students. And every single time we do we ask,
is anyone surprised by these statistics? And no one puts
their hand up ever. And that happens every time we go into
schools. Why? And it just shows like, you know, this is so
normal, it is just every day. And and then the saddest thing
is it's accepted. And I think that's what that was that was
that is what was really inspiring and like hopeful when
you know, everyone's invited began picking up as that it was
that sense of like, you know, we're not going to let this
slide anymore. This is not okay. And it was it was incredible to
have that kind of moment of, I don't know, solidarity and
refusal to accept that as normal.
Zoe Amar: Absolutely. I loved seeing some of those photos over
students going along to their schools and protesting and
holding up these banners saying we won't be treated like this. I
need to know these questions and about the complicity of the
school in covering things up in some cases. I thought that was
fantastic. You've put power in the hands of these young people.
Soma Sara: I mean, we only hope that, you know, we're always we
were so moved during that period when we were seeing that
response. It was just incredible to see how many young people
kind of took it on. I don't know, like, took, took action in
their own right and really like, challenged what was happening
within their institutions. And it was so inspiring to see like,
16 15 18 year old girls like having a voice and speaking out.
And it was just Yeah, amazing. Amazing. And they were so so
brave. And yeah, it's, it's, it was really surreal. But yeah,
Paul Thomas: we discussed just before this, that I listened to
the audio version of the book. And I remember walking along
listening to The Final Chapter, which is called backlash, which
I think you talk about how the importance of backlash, and yes,
it's hard to be in that, but you need it, because then you know
that you are generating a discussion with a conversation
that needs to happen. And there's a point towards the end
of the book where I don't know if I was reading this, if I'd be
reading this, it would have come across in the same way. But you
sort of say, and another thing, and another thing, and another
thing, and it layers and layers and layers. And my sort of sense
was, Oh, my God, how does she? How do they keep going in front
of all of this stuff? And it must be exactly that. It's the
reaction of the girls in the schools who are bringing in the
placards and the banners and standing up and fighting for it
that makes this completely valid and completely, you know, worth
continuing with despite the sort of the barrage of backlash and
abuse that you must receive day to day?
Soma Sara: Yeah, definitely, I think it honestly meant so much
at the time, and it still does now. And people share that it
had a positive impact on their life, and that it changed
things. Because it was a really tough time. And it was like,
very intense, and it makes it all feel like so worth it. And,
you know, even yesterday, after finishing the talk, we have four
teenage boys come up to us saying, Thank you so much. We
really enjoyed that. That was really interesting. I never
thought about things that way, thank you really, like made me
think about rethink some of my own experiences and behaviour.
And that's like, you know, I mean, it's, it's amazing. And
you just feel like wow, like this is so worth that this is
like, you know, really, it's very rewarding when when you get
to have those moments. And there was so many moments like that
when everything exploded, there were so many messages, so many
people sharing. So many people coming up to you. And I mean,
it's overwhelming, but it was just like, it was a lot to take
in. But you just remember, you remember the essence you
remember why you're doing this? And yeah, it feels it feels like
something that is worthwhile. And yeah, important. And I think
it's easy to forget that when things are getting really
challenging. And a little bit, you know, pretty scary at
points. Yeah.
Paul Thomas: You're creating a movement.
Soma Sara: Yeah, well, I mean, now, I hope, you know, things
are kind of slowing down in terms of like all the media and
stuff, but it's really amazing to see, you know, off the back
of the movement, having, you know, given the opportunity to
write the book, and now really growing the organisation as a
charity has been a way to kind of, I guess, extend and preserve
that work and continue doing the work in a more structured way.
So I hope that that will become the legacy of that moment.
Zoe Amar: And we've talked about the book. So for anyone who
doesn't know about the book, can you tell them a bit more about
what you wrote it?
Soma Sara: Yeah, so it is. I wrote it. I mean, I guess
because of everything that happened with everyone's invited
in the kind of metre explosion and the and, you know, the
testimonies being shared. And I think I just really wanted to
grapple with the experience of what happened and also this
culture, this rape culture, I really wanted to interrogate it.
I really wanted to understand it. I wanted to break it down
and I wanted to try and, you know, see if I could find some
solutions, find some hope. And I also really wanted to write
something that was accessible and universal and that, you
know, anyone could pick up then, you know, understand these
ideas. And so it's essentially a collection of essays and lots of
different things are covered talking about pornography and
the impact of the mainstream of mainstreaming of hardcore
pornography on young people and young people's understanding of
sex and relationships, talking also about gender scripts,
masculinity and femininity, stereotypes, how that really
impacts gender norms, and how we treat each other. And there's
lots on intersectionality and kind of experiences of sexual
violence and sexism that are layered by different things like
racism and understanding how people have a unique experiences
of rape culture, depending on their identities, and who they
are. And then I talk about the backlash as well, I have a long
chapter breaking it all down and really focusing on that. And,
yeah, there's a lot about digital sexual violence and
image based sexual abuse and harassment. So thinking about
the digital world and the digital landscape, and thinking
about how you're trying to bridge those generational gaps
and help an older generation understand what it's like to
come of age, in this time in this era. And, you know, so it's
so we can hopefully educate them in properly and meaningfully
supporting their children and young people. Because it's a
very different way of growing up. Haven't read it in a while.
I hope that was an okay summary.
Paul Thomas: I was gonna ask you about that. Because one of the
one of the things that I sort of took away from it, so I've got
two boys. And my immediate thought was, I've got a 14 year
old boy, who I want to read the book, but I know him, he won't.
So I need to find a way of getting that content to him
sitting down and talking to him thinking it through. But you
really do make the point. And I think it's well made, about
asking parents to sit up, step up to the plate. And obviously,
you know, there are other influences in their lives at
that age, not just us. But the role of parenting is really,
really quite clear to me. And you're talking to two people in
me and Zoe, who are probably fairly well placed. He says, to
really try and get to the bottom of what that experience of
growing up in this online offline. Well, I mean, it's, we
experience itself, probably as two things. There's an offline
world and there's an online world, and we can see where they
blend. But for a young person today, those two things are so
interconnected, that even Zoey, and I would struggle to be able
to relate to our kids in the same way that they are
experiencing this. So the I don't know what the question is
here. But there is a point that if if we are in a privileged
position to be able to understand that and to be able
to navigate that, how do we and how does this content get to
those parents, who don't have that same thought process, and I
equate it to simple things I've always, I'm a gamer, and I've
always played video games. And when I hear that, like a 14 year
old child is being given Call of Duty, which is an 18 rated game,
for example. It's usually because the parents haven't
invested the time to understand what it is they are actually
putting in the hands of their children. And that's the gap for
me, I think, is how to how do we bridge that gap between? How do
we get that the sort of the ideas and the content in front
of those parents and all of us, but those parents in particular.
Soma Sara: I think it's always going to be challenging, but I
mean, even just doing this podcast today, just talking
about it as much as possible, bringing it up, having these
discussions is a way to kind of start to engage people. And I
think we have to be careful and thoughtful about the language
and the tone. And the way that we're kind of approaching these
things. And I think I mean, to some it is a controversial
issue. And some people react quite strongly in a negative
way. And I think we have to be mindful of that. And I think
we're living in such polarised kind of really kind of chaotic,
reactionary times where there often isn't space for dialogue
anymore, and in many issues, and there's a lot of emotion, a lot
of anger. People are easily triggered. And I think sometimes
we're unable to kind of think rationally think logically
because we're so emotional. And I think it's about I don't know,
trying, you know, being aware of that, being conscious of that,
making space for that and trying to approach these conversations
in a non kind of combative, aggressive way, without shame,
questioning, asking, making sure everyone has an opportunity to
kind of say what they think. And you know, that you're actually
listening to them and giving them you know, that moment to
speak, because I think everyone just at the end of the day,
everyone wants to be seen, and they want to be heard, and they
want to be respected. And we have to, you know, just come
come to these common really challenging conversations from a
compassionate and an empathetic place. And, yeah, I mean, it's
definitely easiest, easier said than done. It's really hard. I'm
really interested in doing more research and learning more about
kind of nonviolent communication, and like, and
also the idea of, I've recently heard about compassionate
activism. So thinking about things like, how can we and I
touch on this in the book, how do we build these bridges, and,
you know, reunite and kind of have these conversations, like,
it's so sad to me that we're living in a time where we
literally would rather not have them than engage or even
interact with people who disagree with us on many issues.
And I'm just like, how did we get here, it feels even less.
You know, it feels like incredibly intolerant, and
reductive and one dimensional and, yeah, very harmful and
toxic in many cases. And I really hope we can, yeah, build
on listening and sharing and actually having constructive
dialogues that are getting somewhere and yeah, but it's
really it's much easier said than done. And a lot of people
who do activism, who do activist work, who are championing causes
that, you know, they're coming from a place of trauma, and harm
and pain. And a lot of you know, it's really, if you're being
challenged and attacked, of course, is like a traumatised
individual, I think, a human, very human responses to shout
and attack back and be really easily triggered. I think,
sadly, a lot of the people doing, you know, engage in
activism in the wrong sector, violence against women and girls
in survivor sector, have not, you know, they're still
traumatised, and they haven't done their healing. And
sometimes, in many cases, traumatised people can actually
be, you know, quite harmful, and can perpetuate harm. So that's
why healing is so essential to everyone involved. But it's
really hard, it's really hard to navigate and to deal with.
Zoe Amar: So what can leaders do about this in the workplace?
Because we've talked about how this culture is so pervasive,
isn't it? So, in the workplace, what would you like leaders to
do in order to really combat this kind of culture?
Soma Sara: I think we have to, you know, there are a lot of
things that can happen. But you know, basic, is just actually
making space for survivors and or people with these
experiences, or, you know, people who have experienced harm
in the workplace, toxic behaviour, hurt, pain, you know,
giving them spaces and an opportunity to to vocalise and
articulate what's going on, and to take concerns and issues
seriously, and really respect that space. And, yeah, I think
it's just so important to kind of, you've got a set, I guess it
within any organisation, it has to be a kind of whole
organisation, culture, which comes from the top and needs to
go to the very bottom. And I guess it's about setting values,
setting the tone, and really paying attention to that and
prioritising that, and, you know, making sure that you have
people who are in positions of power, who embody, you know,
positive values of empathy and compassion and understanding and
respect. And, you know, in also, I think, giving everyone a voice
and an opportunity to vocalise how they're feeling about, you
know, any of these situations is really important as well. And,
yeah, education obviously, is so important. I mean, there are so
many specialist organisations out there, including everyone's
invited that deliver education around these issues, cultures of
sexual violence misogynist, sexism. And it's really crucial
that, you know, everyone is getting a basic understanding of
how this can occur, whether it's kind of breaking down and
understanding and tackling rape myths in society, prejudice,
gender stereotypes. You know, it's so important and reading
stories, survivor stories, again, empathy building, trying
to, you know, endeavouring to understand people's experiences
that might kind of differ, or jar to your own kind of
perception of reality and understanding the your reality
isn't the only reality that life is so nuanced and complex, and
we're all coming from different places and backgrounds and
experiences. And, you know, we we were different. And that's
okay. And yeah, so I think that was a very much a kind of a long
tangent, but hopefully that that helps. A little bit.
Paul Thomas: It does, it does help are you starting to see
demand from organisations and businesses?
Soma Sara: Yeah, so I think we're seeing more of that now.
And it's just still in early days, but we've started doing
some work in organisations and charities. And yeah, so that's
been really exciting. And it's so important, because, you know,
as we said, from the very start from which I really tried drive
home, and the book is that this is a universal problem. I mean,
it's happening in schools, but it's not just happening in
schools. It's just one section of society. It's everywhere, you
know, if 56 MPs are being accused of sexual misconduct,
and that's the standard that's being set the very, very top,
then, you know, please do not be surprised, you know, if this is
happening, in, you know, every corner, whether it's in policing
in the criminal justice system, in the education sector, you
know, this is, it's widespread, it's a it's a universal culture.
Zoe Amar: I think that's such a great point and powerfully made
Soma and is there something here a kind of a barrier almost, that
you see, leaders, head teachers, you know, whatever form they may
take, to go through in order to just acknowledging the fact that
this stuff does happen. And there is a chance that it could
happen on your watch. And you need to confront the fact that
this is happening in some form in so many places, and you have
to accept that and do what you can to safeguard against it
happening.
Soma Sara: I think that is such a important point that, you
know, that it is that kind of confrontation and acceptance of
that this is like real and happening and happens. And I
think that it's actually hard for a lot of people. And I think
that, you know, it can often be the barrier people being
unwilling to accept their own kind of part in in enabling this
culture to exist. And I think that's why many people are so
disturbed by the term rape culture, because they view rape
is this really, you know, obviously, it's horrific and
painful, but they their idea of rape is something that is, you
know, very one dimensional and can only happen in a dark
alleyway by a stranger in the middle of the night and by a
monster. And actually those kinds of that kind of
envisioning of rape that that rape script is, is serving to
compartmentalise and separate yourself from, from the reality
of, you know, we are all actually complicit and part of
this culture together. And that, you know, if we don't challenge
this in our daily lives, whether it's through challenging
misogyny, challenging sexism, challenging misogynistic
language, you know, we are contributing to a rape culture
that allows the worst kinds of sexual violence and assault and
rape to continue to exist and thrive, that we're all a part of
it and we're all responsible. We're all in it. We're all
responsible for this culture. We've been socialised in
patriarchy in, you know, a system and we need to understand
that it you know, it's almost it's subconscious, it's
internalised we have a lot of internalised misogyny, we need
to unravel that unpick that and do all all that we can to
challenge challenge this in our day to day lives, I think is
really hard for people to come to terms with that. And to Yeah,
to accept that reality that they are part of this. They're
responsible, but we all are. And, yeah, it's it's definitely
challenging.
Paul Thomas: I think that you almost have to go that step
further as a leader, don't you and just make the assumption
that you said, you stood in a room full of schoolchildren,
you've asked whether this is surprising to anyone and nobody
puts their hands up. So as a leader, perhaps you almost need
to take that step further and say, Look, I just assume that
it's happening. And therefore, this is what we are doing, to
recognise that before, you know, God forbid, before you get the
report from somebody that says that this has happened. So, you
know, my immediate reaction was to go out and buy 10 copies of
the book and sort of distribute them to organisations that I
work with, not in a judgmental way, but just in a sort of a
that, read this, read this and absorb it. And then let's have a
conversation about how you see this being approached in your
organisation? Because it really is that that obvious to me, I
guess that that that's a step that you should take, as a
leader to have read the book.
Zoe Amar: I don't think it's scare mongering, I think the way
you frame it in the book, someone was really sensible,
because I was talking about this subject to someone else. And I
was saying, Well, if you're going to an event, it's just a
standard thing that you would have a fire safety briefing and
that people would say, well, the fire exits are over there. We
accept that bad things can happen in that context, why
can't we accept that if you are running a huge event with
hundreds of people coming there, chances are that something like
this may happen, and therefore you need to think ahead and plan
ahead for how you can prevent that happening, and also protect
the survivors, when things like that do happen is, as well. So
it seems to me that is a very sensible thing to think through.
Soma Sara: Yeah. And I mean, it is, I think, if you, if you look
at the statistics, and the reality, and the reports, and
the endless research has been done for the past, like,
decades, you know, it's really not an unreasonable thing to
really prioritise this area, and, you know, accept the
reality of this, and, you know, take action to address this, as
you say, in that kind of context. And, I mean, it's
really interesting that you use that example of fire exits,
because I think that's just shows, you know, it's culture
that's culturally accepted as a norm. And I think culture change
is possible, like, you know, we made it normal to put our
seatbelt on every time we get into a car, or now we don't
smoke in public spaces. And it's like, you know, it's possible.
It just takes time and effort. And, you know, backlash is
inevitable, and it's difficult, I think. But I truly think that,
you know, it's doable to, to make this and it's already
happening. I mean, in schools for the one, you know, the first
thing I think it's generally now, and I think the Ofsted
review really emboldened at this. And it really gave what we
were saying credibility, and it basically confirmed kind of our
work. But it's told, you know, all schools across the country
across the UK that they have to address this and take this
seriously. And if they don't, they're not going to pass it off
their review. So I think, you know, it's a huge, that's,
that's made a huge difference. And we're seeing that across all
the schools that we go into in our education programmes. Now,
this is really prioritised and really taken seriously, and it's
really high up on the agenda. And they have to it has to be
now. And, you know, hopefully we can see that moving, you know,
further into different sectors and different organisations,
different parts of societies in business. And, yeah, it's really
amazing to see this change happening. And I think it's not
just, you know, everyone's invited, it's, you know, this
whole area being being looked at in Art and Film and culture and
music. And I think more and more victims and survivors are having
the confidence and the courage and the freedom to speak out and
articulate what they've been through and achieve a sense of
catharsis and an avenue for healing. And there is community
and solidarity and sharing your story. And I think that's what
the testimonies and people who've been part of our
community have have have shown us that, you know, I think,
yeah, that that you're not alone. And you should never be
ashamed of what you've been through, and that there's always
there's hope for the future. And, you know, change as
possible.
Zoe Amar: It's incredibly validating to share those
stories into and to have people listen. And I think that's one
of the wonderful things that you've provided with, everyone's
invited because then it has that ripple effect of encouraging
more conversations, doesn't it? And And there were some things
that I shared with with Paul and some other people last year. And
I found that so helpful just to see the way that people react
socially how men reacted to it, and how shocked they were. And
that in itself really helped me process the experience, it did
help with some of the really horrible after effects from what
had happened. So you're creating this kind of chain effect of, of
change, some of which is wonderful.
Soma Sara: You know, that's something that so many,
countless people who have spoken to, you know, they also feel
that and express that you're being able to articulate their
experience has really been so essential to their ability to
process, what they've been through, and then, you know, get
to a place where they can, you know, begin that healing
journey. And obviously, it's a really, it can be challenging,
it can be triggering, it'd be really hard, but it's like the
beginning of, you know, getting to a place where they can feel
happy and safe and alive and joyous, once more. So I'm very
grateful. And I feel like it's been a really incredible
privilege to have been part of, you know, you know, to have been
doing work for who is making, you know, change like that in
people's lives. And yeah, I'm so proud of my whole team, and, and
everyone, everyone's invited, who was involved, it was really
kind of like a huge, like a village, probably a town of
people working behind the scenes. And I think, yeah, it's
just been amazing to be a part of that.
Zoe Amar: And obviously, everyone's invited is now
registered as a charity. So congratulations. It's super
exciting. What are your plans for it?
Soma Sara: Thank you so much, I guess now, we are very much
focused on prevention, and maintaining, preserving the safe
space healing. But our area I think, is more around prevention
and looking exploring solutions, conducting research, partnering
with academics, looking at our testimonies. And yeah, just
basically doing everything that we can to continue this work,
continue giving survivors a voice and a space to share. And
also, you know, intervening early and helping create a
change amongst young people within, you know, in young minds
and education. And yeah, and just continuing that work and
keeping up that momentum, and really focusing on the
eradication and focusing on the solutions. And yeah, it's a,
it's a really, probably a long term job. And quite, you know,
our our mission statement is to expose and eradicate rape
culture with empathy, compassion, and understanding.
And I think that's quite an ambitious mission statement. And
I think it could probably could take decades, it could take
hundreds of years. But I'm so inspired by my team and by the
incredible people that we get to engage with, especially
especially the young people. Young people in schools are just
the most passionate and interested and engaged and
really inspiring. And I think we learn the most from them.
Zoe Amar: That's wonderful. Well, congratulations on our on
the book, and everyone's invited, becoming a charity and
also all the fantastic work you've done. And where can
people go to find out more about the book, and also the charity?
Soma Sara: So the book can be bought in like bookstores,
Waterstones, Amazon, Simon and Schuster website. And the
paperback is out next week, which is very exciting. And the
website, everyone's invited.uk, Instagram, everyone's invited,
Twitter is AI movement. And yeah, just googling. Everyone's
invited, I guess all of our links will come up. And please
log on, join our community. Read the stories, share your story,
if you feel comfortable. We have some incredible resources on our
Instagram, and a lot of support. And a really comprehensive
support page on our website as well that really details the
amazing a list of really amazing organisations out there
providing direct support to survivors who need it. And
there's lots there for everyone, male survivors, female
survivors, LGBTQ survivors, survivors of colour, and more
about, you know, specific for parents, young people So there's
a you know, really a huge mix, and diverse mix there. So please
do check it out if you if you need support.
Zoe Amar: There's tonnes of great resources there. So we'll
make sure that we link to the site in the show notes. Soma
thank you so much. It's been super inspiring to talk to you,
we are so in awe of everything you've done. And we are so
excited about everything you're going to go on and do as well.
So thank you so much for coming on.
Soma Sara: Thank you so much for having me. It's been really a
pleasure to be here. And I really appreciate all your
questions. And I really enjoyed it. So thank you. And thank you
for spreading the spreading the word and for platforming my book
and having me on, I really appreciate that.
Paul Thomas: You're so welcome. And I was just going to suggest
that people buy the book in bulk as well and distribute it to
their friends. And that would seem like a good thing to do
Zoe Amar: and in the workplace as well. But I think you're onto
something with getting multiple copies and sharing them around
the workplace. I think it's a great idea. If you've got a
workplace book club, as quite a few workplaces do. Why not put
this book on the list?
Paul Thomas: Yeah, yeah. And I was suggesting to the person I
sent it to actually that within lots of organisations now have
EDI networks. Does the EDI network have recommended reading
list library something like that? You know, it should be
added? Definitely. I will get a petition to get it added into
the school as well.
Soma Sara: Thank you so much.
Paul Thomas: The Kids all go to the same school. So I'm gonna
send them a note saying that they thought to your to be in
the library.
Soma Sara: Amazing. Thanks.
Zoe Amar: Great idea. Cool. Well, let's see how you get on
with that. Thank you so much to Soma, for her time, openness.
And that's incredible discussion about what leaders need to do
about misogyny in the workplace and wider society. If you have
been affected by anything that you've heard, there are links
and resources on the everyone's invited website that will direct
you to help, including the report abuse in education
helpline. And the page that you're looking for is everyone's
invited.uk forward slash help forward slash find help. And
we'll include that link in the show notes.
Paul Thomas: So we'll be back in a couple of weeks with a brand
new episode. And in the meantime, you can find us on
Twitter we're at Starts at the Top one. And you can also email
us at starts at the top@gmail.com
Zoe Amar: And if you listen to us on Apple podcasts or anywhere
else that you get your podcasts you can rate and review, please
do all your reviews help us to reach more listeners. I will
speak to you again in a couple of weeks. See you then.
Paul Thomas: Thank you very much. Bye