Zoe Amar 0:04 We are delighted that this episode of Starts at the Top is sponsored by Arvato CRM solutions. Arvato CRM solutions designs and delivers award winning customer service, business process outsourcing, and digital and Intelligent Automation solutions with some of the world's most respected brands, as well as innovative Charity and public sector clients. They partner with clients to help them define their customer experience and transformation strategies by implementing the right technology, people and processes to improve their customer journey, while driving new efficiencies and helping them prepare for the future. To find out more about how Arvato CRM solutions could help an organisation like yours, and to receive a free no obligation chat, visit avato.co.uk forward slash Wales air ambulance Soma Sara 1:13 This is a culture that allows violence to exist. And you know, it's not just about those incidents of violence of sexual assault. It's about everything else that is allowing it to happen. Paul Thomas 1:28 Welcome to a brand new episode of Starts at the Top our podcast about digital leadership and change. I'm Paul Thomas. And I'm Zoe Amar we were delighted and privileged to speak to a very exciting guest today. Soma Sara, author and founder of everyone's invited. Paul, what did you think of this conversation? Well, where do I begin? I think it's probably the most nervous I've been for any conversation that we've had on the podcast. Zoe Amar 1:59 What Why was that just out of interest? Paul Thomas 2:03 Well, I think the I think the content, I think you, just go behind the scenes a bit. You sent me a message when we were reading the book saying, you know, you okay, how are you? How are you finding this? And I think my response was something along the lines of well, it's not a massive surprise. I think I'm fairly well read, I'd watch lots of TV and documentaries and films and things like that. And you know, I've got my eyes pretty much wide open. But still, by the time I got to the book, I but by the time I got to the end of the book, my eyes were welling truly open. And I think we had a discussion straight after the episode about what happens next. And I found myself evangelising the book quite a lot. Over the past couple of weeks. I've given a copy to a client of mine. And I've had somebody that I work with who's working on a big EDI project at the moment to get a copy of the book. But all of that added up to a bit of nervousness around it, especially as the sort of the the obvious male in the room as part of the discussion. I think a lot of this is about male toxicity. Toxic masculinity. And I guess there was a part of me that was reading it and feeling not defensive. Maybe defensive, I don't know. But it was all adding up to making me quite nervous. But the conversation was fantastic. And Soma was absolutely a breath of fresh air. How did you feel? Zoe Amar 3:41 Absolutely, I think she really is a breath of fresh air. And I was so happy that we were able to get her on the podcast of anyone who might be new to her work, you'll certainly have come across everyone's invited before. You might remember they absolutely exploded in the media in summer 2020. It's essentially an anti rape movement organisation which began when they provided a forum for survivors focused on schools to share their experiences. And I think that they've gone from strength to strength since I mean, obviously someone has gone on to be widely venerated, quite rightly, for the work that she's doing. And in the interview itself, she talks about the impact it has had, for example on how Ofsted now assess schools, which is just a fantastic achievement to have. So I'm really, really delighted that we managed to get some time with her to find out a bit more about the story so far. And where everyone's invited goes from here and also why everyone's invited is a symptom of a wider culture that leaders really need to be aware of, and what actions they need to take in order to deal with misogyny in the workplace and wider society. Paul Thomas 4:58 Yeah, I think I think that It was part of the challenge I felt going into this was, you know, we opened the podcast by saying it's a podcast about digital leadership and change. And it's not much digital in this apart from setting up a website. And there's some really good stuff on social media and how young people are living their lives through their phones, which has been a focus of mine for a good few months, but it's really, really shone a light on that aspect of things. But yeah, why this podcast and why Soma? And I think we sort of had that conversation at the end, didn't we about where this sits for leaders now. And I think what I was really shocked about looking at the examples on the not the examples on the website, but on the every everyone's invited website, where they share the the testimonies from schools, and I mentioned all the schools that are included, or have been included, where testimonials people come from, and what's particularly shocking about that list is that it starts with hundreds of infant schools. And you suddenly get to the point where you think what, why is this relevant for leaders? Well, within organisations, we asked her about this, but within organisations, businesses, whatever sector, I think leaders have to think that this has happened, or something like this has happened in their workplace is happening, or will happen. And therefore, I think it becomes an essential part of every leaders toolkit, if you like, for how to sort of how to lead in the in 2023. And beyond. I think it's that important, hence giving copies to clients and thinking about how do I do more of that? Can I buy some copies and donate them to our local school? How would that go down in a school that, you know, might not be expecting 10 copies of everyone's invited but should probably put it in their library? So it sparked a whole bunch of questions for me, but I think that's why, you know, if anyone's wondering why, you know, we talking about this on your digital leadership podcast? Well, that's exactly why I think it's, I think it's essential that leaders really do think about this. Zoe Amar 7:19 Exactly. And we all know from our conversations with each other near the work that we do, advising organisations that we do not live in an equal society, we absolutely live at a time when there is so much more work to do in order to create more inclusive spaces. And that includes workplaces as well. That's why leaders need to know about this stuff. Yeah. And I think the book will be more than food for thought for any leader that's got questions about this. So I would urge we will include links to the to the book and where to buy it online. But I would urge anyone or anyone I'm working with is going to hear about it. But I would urge any other leaders that listen to this conversation and have an interest to go and pick up a copy of the book and, and really absorb it. And we'd love to hear what our listeners think of this episode. We know there is a lot of quite heavy stuff to think through from this interview some stuff that really needs to be heard, though, and we encourage you to get in touch with us and let us know what you think of our conversation with Soma. And of course the book as well. So now for a conversation with Soma. If we haven't been clear up to this point, please be aware that although there are no specific examples shared, the following conversation includes mentions of sexual assault and rape, and may be triggering. So please do proceed with caution. We'll be including a link to some resources that could help you at the end of this interview, and also in the show notes as well. In June 2020, Soma Sara founded, everyone's invited an anti rape movement organisation, which allows survivors of rape culture to share their stories through testimonies anonymously on their website and Instagram profile. Soma has been included in British Vogue Vogue 25, one the 2021 Harper's Bazaar activist of the Year Award, and was included in the BBC 100 Global list of inspiring and influential women of 2021. She has also written for the Times, The Telegraph, The I Paper, Tortoise media, and the Daily Express. Soma Welcome to Starts at the Top. We are so thrilled to have you here. Soma Sara 9:55 Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited and I really appreciate it. Zoe Amar 9:59 It is our absolute pleasure. We can't wait to hear more about the book as we go through the conversation today. So can we begin at the beginning? So obviously, you've been through this really phenomenal several years as everyone's invited was, was started. So can you take us back to the beginning to that moment when you decided to set up Everyone's invited? Soma Sara 10:25 Yes, so it was back in June 2020. And I was finishing up University and completing my English degree at UCL. And it was during lockdown, actually, and I was finishing my finals, and it was all online. And I've been having a lot of discussions and conversations with close friends. And you know, getting to uni and kind of reflection and looking back and realising Wow, this is actually not okay, this is not normal. This is not okay. And how, you know, like questioning why that was normal. And, yeah, so I think it came with, like, age and maturity, and I guess having a moment to really pause, which was kind of in lockdown as well. And, yeah, so it was, yeah, that realisation and then I guess, maybe anger and frustration and, you know, feeling you know that? Yeah, feeling like it was really challenging and traumatic to go through and, you know, having a sense of just wanting to talk about it, and that's what I did, I shared my story on Instagram, and I shared some of my experiences. And I, I spoke to this kind of idea of a culture, a rape culture, where thoughts, attitudes and beliefs in society have the effect of normalising and trivialising sexual violence. So I know rape culture as a term might sound a little bit scary or intimidating or extreme to some people, because I obviously the word rape is invoking violence, and it's taboo. And you know, it's really stigmatised. But what it's actually saying is, you know, this is a culture that allows violence to exist. And, you know, it's not just about those incidents of violence of sexual assault, it's about everything else that is allowing it to happen. So it's the behaviours, the attitudes, the way we treat each other, the objectification, the media, the language that we use, you know, what we're listening to what we're watching what we're consuming, the way that women and girls are portrayed in film and in media, the way the you know, girls are treated and spoken about. And then that's also bleeding into the behaviours and how we're treating each other and dehumanisation. And then, you know, sexual harassment, and stalking and cat... you know, it goes on and on. So it's kind of this incremental culture where everything is connected. And there are these gateway behaviours. And then it's also the victim blaming, and the lack of volition to believe survivors when they speak out and the invalidation of their stories. And it's the enabling, and people doing nothing that creates this, you know, this culture that allows rape to happen. And unfortunately, this is not rare. It happens all the time. It's one in three. And, you know, this statistics and the facts of I guess, the reality of the situation is staggering once you confront it. So I think it's quite challenging for people to really sorry, I've caught going on such a tangent, but um, yeah, so I guess I've really segwayed from the original question, but I shared this story and a lot of people resonated with it, a lot of my communities and my peers, and they started sharing this with me. Zoe Amar 14:57 Everything you said really resonates with me somewhere. And I think what was really brutal and very necessary about your book, and also the amazing work that you've done is just as you were talking there and from your book to maybe really think about how those first year is when you are starting to go out into the world as a teenager, and really formative time on a, and then if violence becomes really normalised and embedded in those first experiences of relationships. That's kind of horrifying, isn't it? Soma Sara 15:33 Yeah. And I think it just kind of contributes to a cycle, you know, cycles of violence, and that kind of, I guess, standard, being accepted as the normal and you know, it becomes difficult to challenge because you don't have an understanding of something that's healthy or, you know, a loving and equal and healthy dynamic within relationships. And yeah, I think it just it again, it perpetuates those cycles of abuse. And I also think, experiencing that, those kind of things so young, you know, it's an incredibly vulnerable and formative time, your kind of brain is developing your body, you know, you're changing, you're growing. And you're so young. And, you know, the research shows that trauma stays with you, and it can really impact the trajectory of your life, especially in childhood trauma, it can kind of transform your brain chemistry and, you know, you develop, you can develop really severe mental health, mental health disorders, and anxiety and depression and PTSD. And this really impacts your life. And you know, it's not something that just goes away, it's something that you kind of have to learn to live with. And that's, I guess, what I'm really what I was really trying to convey in the book is, and also obviously, with platforming these stories, it's all about showing, flipping the script and platforming the survivor perspective and platforming that these things that happen, really can destroy people's lives and really have an impact on them for years to come. Whether it's you know, being unable to, you know, finish school, pass your GCSEs, flunking out of university, you know, falling into addiction falling into crime falling into, you know, really bad, abusive toxic relationships. And it's basically, you know, it can lead to, you know, suicide and early death. So it's really this kind of ripple effect that can, you know, it's so, I think the impact is, is so it's vast, and I think it's really important to, to emphasise that. Zoe Amar 17:54 We're bringing this really important conversation out into the open aren't you. And that's what I think is so liberating, and so sort of necessary about it, because some of the types of conversations that you you talk about on everyone's invited and also through the book as well. Previously, before the incredible work that you you've done, I feel like a lot of those conversations happen behind closed doors between women talking to each other and saying, Oh, this, this thing happened to me. And it it didn't feel right. And, you know, that felt wrong, and Was it my fault, and all those things that we all go through? And that's what I think is so wonderful about the work you've done that you're taking all of this, this awful stories that have happened and and shining this light on it and saying, Look, this isn't right, this needs to change. So you launch, everyone's invited, and obviously, that was huge. I remember that blowing up. It was all over the Daily Mail. Every single newspaper was all over social media. What was it like to be at the centre of that? Because obviously, I hadn't met you at the time, but it looked like a massive media storm. Soma Sara 19:11 Yeah, I mean, it was totally surreal. And unexpected. And, I mean, I could never have imagined that it would have reached that point so quickly, and unexploded in that way and I guess, unleashed this tidal wave of, of stories of people sharing people speaking out and, and talking about these incredibly vulnerable and really traumatic in many cases, these, you know, these many get the worst moment of people's lives in some cases. And I think it was a very, it was a very intense time, very emotional time, but I think it was almost like, I felt like this is like, you know, we have been given Being this microphone, we've been given this microphone I, you know, myself and my team, my organisation, I at the time, it was just kind of a group of activists and a group of friends. But we've really felt, you know, we've got to make the most of it, we've got to make the most of this opportunity and do our best to platform these stories and showcase, you know, these experiences and shine a light and and expose rape culture. And to do this with empathy, compassion and understanding. And yeah, so I think at the moment, it was almost like, I don't have any other choice, but to you know, I felt something inside you just kind of comes and you're like, this is like, you just have to do it. And I think it really, I think it was, it was very stressful. It's felt like a lot of pressure and huge responsibility. But there was a huge amount of support and incredible people, just in my own life, supporting me and my team, my family, my friends, but just publicly widely, you know, the journalists, the media, the public, was so engaged. And I think, you know, we were kind of in this momentum and being lifted and pushed forward. And I think it just goes to show how important this issue is, and how everyone is affected by it. You know, it caused a storm, because it is so relatable. I mean, yeah, and, and especially for my generation, I think it really hit home with, you know, young people, people in education, but then obviously, their parents as well, who are, yeah, I mean, an older generation who have children. And if I guess in the early days, a conversation was very focused around schools and university, so it was engaging across, you know, across generations. And, and also, not just about, you know, parents worrying about their children, it was issues, you know, that affect everyone of all ages. And I think every woman kind of has a story or has something has something that's they've experienced in life that probably has left them changed and slightly traumatised in some way. That is kind of related to misogyny, rape, culture, sexism, sexual violence. And I mean, it's a really sad, devastating reality, when you begin to confront the scale and the universal prevalence of sexual violence in society and in the world. Zoe Amar 22:34 I totally we agree with that. Absolutely. I think everyone does have a story like that. And having finished your incredible book a few days ago, one of the most shocking things about it to me was that it wasn't shocking, in the sense that, as you say, this violent sense of violence, this experience of violence is so prevalent, isn't it? Soma Sara 23:01 Yeah. And I mean, that makes me think about, you know, something that yesterday I was in a school, and I our organisation delivers education now and one of the kind of moments and one of the presentations we do probably in most of our presentations, actually is we talk about the Ofsted report that was triggered after everyone's invited exploded, they had a national review in schools. And one of the findings is that nine out of 10 girls experience it experience unsolicited dick pics and cyber flashing, and nine out of 10 girls are victims of sexist and misogynistic name calling and, and that sexual abuse online and sexual harassment had become totally normalised in schools and that they were universal experiences in schools. And we show this every time to the students. And every single time we do we ask, is anyone surprised by these statistics? And no one puts their hand up ever. And that happens every time we go into schools. Why? And it just shows like, you know, this is so normal, it is just every day. And and then the saddest thing is it's accepted. And I think that's what that was that was that is what was really inspiring and like hopeful when you know, everyone's invited began picking up as that it was that sense of like, you know, we're not going to let this slide anymore. This is not okay. And it was it was incredible to have that kind of moment of, I don't know, solidarity and refusal to accept that as normal. Zoe Amar 24:41 Absolutely. I loved seeing some of those photos over students going along to their schools and protesting and holding up these banners saying we won't be treated like this. I need to know these questions and about the complicity of the school in covering things up in some cases. I thought that was fantastic. You've put power in the hands of these young people. Soma Sara 25:06 I mean, we only hope that, you know, we're always we were so moved during that period when we were seeing that response. It was just incredible to see how many young people kind of took it on. I don't know, like, took, took action in their own right and really like, challenged what was happening within their institutions. And it was so inspiring to see like, 16 15 18 year old girls like having a voice and speaking out. And it was just Yeah, amazing. Amazing. And they were so so brave. And yeah, it's, it's, it was really surreal. But yeah, Paul Thomas 25:50 we discussed just before this, that I listened to the audio version of the book. And I remember walking along listening to The Final Chapter, which is called backlash, which I think you talk about how the importance of backlash, and yes, it's hard to be in that, but you need it, because then you know that you are generating a discussion with a conversation that needs to happen. And there's a point towards the end of the book where I don't know if I was reading this, if I'd be reading this, it would have come across in the same way. But you sort of say, and another thing, and another thing, and another thing, and it layers and layers and layers. And my sort of sense was, Oh, my God, how does she? How do they keep going in front of all of this stuff? And it must be exactly that. It's the reaction of the girls in the schools who are bringing in the placards and the banners and standing up and fighting for it that makes this completely valid and completely, you know, worth continuing with despite the sort of the barrage of backlash and abuse that you must receive day to day? Soma Sara 26:54 Yeah, definitely, I think it honestly meant so much at the time, and it still does now. And people share that it had a positive impact on their life, and that it changed things. Because it was a really tough time. And it was like, very intense, and it makes it all feel like so worth it. And, you know, even yesterday, after finishing the talk, we have four teenage boys come up to us saying, Thank you so much. We really enjoyed that. That was really interesting. I never thought about things that way, thank you really, like made me think about rethink some of my own experiences and behaviour. And that's like, you know, I mean, it's, it's amazing. And you just feel like wow, like this is so worth that this is like, you know, really, it's very rewarding when when you get to have those moments. And there was so many moments like that when everything exploded, there were so many messages, so many people sharing. So many people coming up to you. And I mean, it's overwhelming, but it was just like, it was a lot to take in. But you just remember, you remember the essence you remember why you're doing this? And yeah, it feels it feels like something that is worthwhile. And yeah, important. And I think it's easy to forget that when things are getting really challenging. And a little bit, you know, pretty scary at points. Yeah. Paul Thomas 28:29 You're creating a movement. Soma Sara 28:33 Yeah, well, I mean, now, I hope, you know, things are kind of slowing down in terms of like all the media and stuff, but it's really amazing to see, you know, off the back of the movement, having, you know, given the opportunity to write the book, and now really growing the organisation as a charity has been a way to kind of, I guess, extend and preserve that work and continue doing the work in a more structured way. So I hope that that will become the legacy of that moment. Zoe Amar 29:06 And we've talked about the book. So for anyone who doesn't know about the book, can you tell them a bit more about what you wrote it? Soma Sara 29:15 Yeah, so it is. I wrote it. I mean, I guess because of everything that happened with everyone's invited in the kind of metre explosion and the and, you know, the testimonies being shared. And I think I just really wanted to grapple with the experience of what happened and also this culture, this rape culture, I really wanted to interrogate it. I really wanted to understand it. I wanted to break it down and I wanted to try and, you know, see if I could find some solutions, find some hope. And I also really wanted to write something that was accessible and universal and that, you know, anyone could pick up then, you know, understand these ideas. And so it's essentially a collection of essays and lots of different things are covered talking about pornography and the impact of the mainstream of mainstreaming of hardcore pornography on young people and young people's understanding of sex and relationships, talking also about gender scripts, masculinity and femininity, stereotypes, how that really impacts gender norms, and how we treat each other. And there's lots on intersectionality and kind of experiences of sexual violence and sexism that are layered by different things like racism and understanding how people have a unique experiences of rape culture, depending on their identities, and who they are. And then I talk about the backlash as well, I have a long chapter breaking it all down and really focusing on that. And, yeah, there's a lot about digital sexual violence and image based sexual abuse and harassment. So thinking about the digital world and the digital landscape, and thinking about how you're trying to bridge those generational gaps and help an older generation understand what it's like to come of age, in this time in this era. And, you know, so it's so we can hopefully educate them in properly and meaningfully supporting their children and young people. Because it's a very different way of growing up. Haven't read it in a while. I hope that was an okay summary. Paul Thomas 31:43 I was gonna ask you about that. Because one of the one of the things that I sort of took away from it, so I've got two boys. And my immediate thought was, I've got a 14 year old boy, who I want to read the book, but I know him, he won't. So I need to find a way of getting that content to him sitting down and talking to him thinking it through. But you really do make the point. And I think it's well made, about asking parents to sit up, step up to the plate. And obviously, you know, there are other influences in their lives at that age, not just us. But the role of parenting is really, really quite clear to me. And you're talking to two people in me and Zoe, who are probably fairly well placed. He says, to really try and get to the bottom of what that experience of growing up in this online offline. Well, I mean, it's, we experience itself, probably as two things. There's an offline world and there's an online world, and we can see where they blend. But for a young person today, those two things are so interconnected, that even Zoey, and I would struggle to be able to relate to our kids in the same way that they are experiencing this. So the I don't know what the question is here. But there is a point that if if we are in a privileged position to be able to understand that and to be able to navigate that, how do we and how does this content get to those parents, who don't have that same thought process, and I equate it to simple things I've always, I'm a gamer, and I've always played video games. And when I hear that, like a 14 year old child is being given Call of Duty, which is an 18 rated game, for example. It's usually because the parents haven't invested the time to understand what it is they are actually putting in the hands of their children. And that's the gap for me, I think, is how to how do we bridge that gap between? How do we get that the sort of the ideas and the content in front of those parents and all of us, but those parents in particular. Soma Sara 33:57 I think it's always going to be challenging, but I mean, even just doing this podcast today, just talking about it as much as possible, bringing it up, having these discussions is a way to kind of start to engage people. And I think we have to be careful and thoughtful about the language and the tone. And the way that we're kind of approaching these things. And I think I mean, to some it is a controversial issue. And some people react quite strongly in a negative way. And I think we have to be mindful of that. And I think we're living in such polarised kind of really kind of chaotic, reactionary times where there often isn't space for dialogue anymore, and in many issues, and there's a lot of emotion, a lot of anger. People are easily triggered. And I think sometimes we're unable to kind of think rationally think logically because we're so emotional. And I think it's about I don't know, trying, you know, being aware of that, being conscious of that, making space for that and trying to approach these conversations in a non kind of combative, aggressive way, without shame, questioning, asking, making sure everyone has an opportunity to kind of say what they think. And you know, that you're actually listening to them and giving them you know, that moment to speak, because I think everyone just at the end of the day, everyone wants to be seen, and they want to be heard, and they want to be respected. And we have to, you know, just come come to these common really challenging conversations from a compassionate and an empathetic place. And, yeah, I mean, it's definitely easiest, easier said than done. It's really hard. I'm really interested in doing more research and learning more about kind of nonviolent communication, and like, and also the idea of, I've recently heard about compassionate activism. So thinking about things like, how can we and I touch on this in the book, how do we build these bridges, and, you know, reunite and kind of have these conversations, like, it's so sad to me that we're living in a time where we literally would rather not have them than engage or even interact with people who disagree with us on many issues. And I'm just like, how did we get here, it feels even less. You know, it feels like incredibly intolerant, and reductive and one dimensional and, yeah, very harmful and toxic in many cases. And I really hope we can, yeah, build on listening and sharing and actually having constructive dialogues that are getting somewhere and yeah, but it's really it's much easier said than done. And a lot of people who do activism, who do activist work, who are championing causes that, you know, they're coming from a place of trauma, and harm and pain. And a lot of you know, it's really, if you're being challenged and attacked, of course, is like a traumatised individual, I think, a human, very human responses to shout and attack back and be really easily triggered. I think, sadly, a lot of the people doing, you know, engage in activism in the wrong sector, violence against women and girls in survivor sector, have not, you know, they're still traumatised, and they haven't done their healing. And sometimes, in many cases, traumatised people can actually be, you know, quite harmful, and can perpetuate harm. So that's why healing is so essential to everyone involved. But it's really hard, it's really hard to navigate and to deal with. Zoe Amar 38:03 So what can leaders do about this in the workplace? Because we've talked about how this culture is so pervasive, isn't it? So, in the workplace, what would you like leaders to do in order to really combat this kind of culture? Soma Sara 38:21 I think we have to, you know, there are a lot of things that can happen. But you know, basic, is just actually making space for survivors and or people with these experiences, or, you know, people who have experienced harm in the workplace, toxic behaviour, hurt, pain, you know, giving them spaces and an opportunity to to vocalise and articulate what's going on, and to take concerns and issues seriously, and really respect that space. And, yeah, I think it's just so important to kind of, you've got a set, I guess it within any organisation, it has to be a kind of whole organisation, culture, which comes from the top and needs to go to the very bottom. And I guess it's about setting values, setting the tone, and really paying attention to that and prioritising that, and, you know, making sure that you have people who are in positions of power, who embody, you know, positive values of empathy and compassion and understanding and respect. And, you know, in also, I think, giving everyone a voice and an opportunity to vocalise how they're feeling about, you know, any of these situations is really important as well. And, yeah, education obviously, is so important. I mean, there are so many specialist organisations out there, including everyone's invited that deliver education around these issues, cultures of sexual violence misogynist, sexism. And it's really crucial that, you know, everyone is getting a basic understanding of how this can occur, whether it's kind of breaking down and understanding and tackling rape myths in society, prejudice, gender stereotypes. You know, it's so important and reading stories, survivor stories, again, empathy building, trying to, you know, endeavouring to understand people's experiences that might kind of differ, or jar to your own kind of perception of reality and understanding the your reality isn't the only reality that life is so nuanced and complex, and we're all coming from different places and backgrounds and experiences. And, you know, we we were different. And that's okay. And yeah, so I think that was a very much a kind of a long tangent, but hopefully that that helps. A little bit. Paul Thomas 40:58 It does, it does help are you starting to see demand from organisations and businesses? Soma Sara 41:08 Yeah, so I think we're seeing more of that now. And it's just still in early days, but we've started doing some work in organisations and charities. And yeah, so that's been really exciting. And it's so important, because, you know, as we said, from the very start from which I really tried drive home, and the book is that this is a universal problem. I mean, it's happening in schools, but it's not just happening in schools. It's just one section of society. It's everywhere, you know, if 56 MPs are being accused of sexual misconduct, and that's the standard that's being set the very, very top, then, you know, please do not be surprised, you know, if this is happening, in, you know, every corner, whether it's in policing in the criminal justice system, in the education sector, you know, this is, it's widespread, it's a it's a universal culture. Zoe Amar 42:07 I think that's such a great point and powerfully made Soma and is there something here a kind of a barrier almost, that you see, leaders, head teachers, you know, whatever form they may take, to go through in order to just acknowledging the fact that this stuff does happen. And there is a chance that it could happen on your watch. And you need to confront the fact that this is happening in some form in so many places, and you have to accept that and do what you can to safeguard against it happening. Soma Sara 42:45 I think that is such a important point that, you know, that it is that kind of confrontation and acceptance of that this is like real and happening and happens. And I think that it's actually hard for a lot of people. And I think that, you know, it can often be the barrier people being unwilling to accept their own kind of part in in enabling this culture to exist. And I think that's why many people are so disturbed by the term rape culture, because they view rape is this really, you know, obviously, it's horrific and painful, but they their idea of rape is something that is, you know, very one dimensional and can only happen in a dark alleyway by a stranger in the middle of the night and by a monster. And actually those kinds of that kind of envisioning of rape that that rape script is, is serving to compartmentalise and separate yourself from, from the reality of, you know, we are all actually complicit and part of this culture together. And that, you know, if we don't challenge this in our daily lives, whether it's through challenging misogyny, challenging sexism, challenging misogynistic language, you know, we are contributing to a rape culture that allows the worst kinds of sexual violence and assault and rape to continue to exist and thrive, that we're all a part of it and we're all responsible. We're all in it. We're all responsible for this culture. We've been socialised in patriarchy in, you know, a system and we need to understand that it you know, it's almost it's subconscious, it's internalised we have a lot of internalised misogyny, we need to unravel that unpick that and do all all that we can to challenge challenge this in our day to day lives, I think is really hard for people to come to terms with that. And to Yeah, to accept that reality that they are part of this. They're responsible, but we all are. And, yeah, it's it's definitely challenging. Paul Thomas 44:58 I think that you almost have to go that step further as a leader, don't you and just make the assumption that you said, you stood in a room full of schoolchildren, you've asked whether this is surprising to anyone and nobody puts their hands up. So as a leader, perhaps you almost need to take that step further and say, Look, I just assume that it's happening. And therefore, this is what we are doing, to recognise that before, you know, God forbid, before you get the report from somebody that says that this has happened. So, you know, my immediate reaction was to go out and buy 10 copies of the book and sort of distribute them to organisations that I work with, not in a judgmental way, but just in a sort of a that, read this, read this and absorb it. And then let's have a conversation about how you see this being approached in your organisation? Because it really is that that obvious to me, I guess that that that's a step that you should take, as a leader to have read the book. Zoe Amar 45:57 I don't think it's scare mongering, I think the way you frame it in the book, someone was really sensible, because I was talking about this subject to someone else. And I was saying, Well, if you're going to an event, it's just a standard thing that you would have a fire safety briefing and that people would say, well, the fire exits are over there. We accept that bad things can happen in that context, why can't we accept that if you are running a huge event with hundreds of people coming there, chances are that something like this may happen, and therefore you need to think ahead and plan ahead for how you can prevent that happening, and also protect the survivors, when things like that do happen is, as well. So it seems to me that is a very sensible thing to think through. Soma Sara 46:45 Yeah. And I mean, it is, I think, if you, if you look at the statistics, and the reality, and the reports, and the endless research has been done for the past, like, decades, you know, it's really not an unreasonable thing to really prioritise this area, and, you know, accept the reality of this, and, you know, take action to address this, as you say, in that kind of context. And, I mean, it's really interesting that you use that example of fire exits, because I think that's just shows, you know, it's culture that's culturally accepted as a norm. And I think culture change is possible, like, you know, we made it normal to put our seatbelt on every time we get into a car, or now we don't smoke in public spaces. And it's like, you know, it's possible. It just takes time and effort. And, you know, backlash is inevitable, and it's difficult, I think. But I truly think that, you know, it's doable to, to make this and it's already happening. I mean, in schools for the one, you know, the first thing I think it's generally now, and I think the Ofsted review really emboldened at this. And it really gave what we were saying credibility, and it basically confirmed kind of our work. But it's told, you know, all schools across the country across the UK that they have to address this and take this seriously. And if they don't, they're not going to pass it off their review. So I think, you know, it's a huge, that's, that's made a huge difference. And we're seeing that across all the schools that we go into in our education programmes. Now, this is really prioritised and really taken seriously, and it's really high up on the agenda. And they have to it has to be now. And, you know, hopefully we can see that moving, you know, further into different sectors and different organisations, different parts of societies in business. And, yeah, it's really amazing to see this change happening. And I think it's not just, you know, everyone's invited, it's, you know, this whole area being being looked at in Art and Film and culture and music. And I think more and more victims and survivors are having the confidence and the courage and the freedom to speak out and articulate what they've been through and achieve a sense of catharsis and an avenue for healing. And there is community and solidarity and sharing your story. And I think that's what the testimonies and people who've been part of our community have have have shown us that, you know, I think, yeah, that that you're not alone. And you should never be ashamed of what you've been through, and that there's always there's hope for the future. And, you know, change as possible. Zoe Amar 49:41 It's incredibly validating to share those stories into and to have people listen. And I think that's one of the wonderful things that you've provided with, everyone's invited because then it has that ripple effect of encouraging more conversations, doesn't it? And And there were some things that I shared with with Paul and some other people last year. And I found that so helpful just to see the way that people react socially how men reacted to it, and how shocked they were. And that in itself really helped me process the experience, it did help with some of the really horrible after effects from what had happened. So you're creating this kind of chain effect of, of change, some of which is wonderful. Soma Sara 50:28 You know, that's something that so many, countless people who have spoken to, you know, they also feel that and express that you're being able to articulate their experience has really been so essential to their ability to process, what they've been through, and then, you know, get to a place where they can, you know, begin that healing journey. And obviously, it's a really, it can be challenging, it can be triggering, it'd be really hard, but it's like the beginning of, you know, getting to a place where they can feel happy and safe and alive and joyous, once more. So I'm very grateful. And I feel like it's been a really incredible privilege to have been part of, you know, you know, to have been doing work for who is making, you know, change like that in people's lives. And yeah, I'm so proud of my whole team, and, and everyone, everyone's invited, who was involved, it was really kind of like a huge, like a village, probably a town of people working behind the scenes. And I think, yeah, it's just been amazing to be a part of that. Zoe Amar 51:39 And obviously, everyone's invited is now registered as a charity. So congratulations. It's super exciting. What are your plans for it? Soma Sara 51:49 Thank you so much, I guess now, we are very much focused on prevention, and maintaining, preserving the safe space healing. But our area I think, is more around prevention and looking exploring solutions, conducting research, partnering with academics, looking at our testimonies. And yeah, just basically doing everything that we can to continue this work, continue giving survivors a voice and a space to share. And also, you know, intervening early and helping create a change amongst young people within, you know, in young minds and education. And yeah, and just continuing that work and keeping up that momentum, and really focusing on the eradication and focusing on the solutions. And yeah, it's a, it's a really, probably a long term job. And quite, you know, our our mission statement is to expose and eradicate rape culture with empathy, compassion, and understanding. And I think that's quite an ambitious mission statement. And I think it could probably could take decades, it could take hundreds of years. But I'm so inspired by my team and by the incredible people that we get to engage with, especially especially the young people. Young people in schools are just the most passionate and interested and engaged and really inspiring. And I think we learn the most from them. Zoe Amar 53:35 That's wonderful. Well, congratulations on our on the book, and everyone's invited, becoming a charity and also all the fantastic work you've done. And where can people go to find out more about the book, and also the charity? Soma Sara 53:51 So the book can be bought in like bookstores, Waterstones, Amazon, Simon and Schuster website. And the paperback is out next week, which is very exciting. And the website, everyone's invited.uk, Instagram, everyone's invited, Twitter is AI movement. And yeah, just googling. Everyone's invited, I guess all of our links will come up. And please log on, join our community. Read the stories, share your story, if you feel comfortable. We have some incredible resources on our Instagram, and a lot of support. And a really comprehensive support page on our website as well that really details the amazing a list of really amazing organisations out there providing direct support to survivors who need it. And there's lots there for everyone, male survivors, female survivors, LGBTQ survivors, survivors of colour, and more about, you know, specific for parents, young people So there's a you know, really a huge mix, and diverse mix there. So please do check it out if you if you need support. Zoe Amar 55:09 There's tonnes of great resources there. So we'll make sure that we link to the site in the show notes. Soma thank you so much. It's been super inspiring to talk to you, we are so in awe of everything you've done. And we are so excited about everything you're going to go on and do as well. So thank you so much for coming on. Soma Sara 55:29 Thank you so much for having me. It's been really a pleasure to be here. And I really appreciate all your questions. And I really enjoyed it. So thank you. And thank you for spreading the spreading the word and for platforming my book and having me on, I really appreciate that. Paul Thomas 55:43 You're so welcome. And I was just going to suggest that people buy the book in bulk as well and distribute it to their friends. And that would seem like a good thing to do Zoe Amar 55:55 and in the workplace as well. But I think you're onto something with getting multiple copies and sharing them around the workplace. I think it's a great idea. If you've got a workplace book club, as quite a few workplaces do. Why not put this book on the list? Paul Thomas 56:11 Yeah, yeah. And I was suggesting to the person I sent it to actually that within lots of organisations now have EDI networks. Does the EDI network have recommended reading list library something like that? You know, it should be added? Definitely. I will get a petition to get it added into the school as well. Soma Sara 56:34 Thank you so much. Paul Thomas 56:35 The Kids all go to the same school. So I'm gonna send them a note saying that they thought to your to be in the library. Soma Sara 56:41 Amazing. Thanks. Zoe Amar 56:42 Great idea. Cool. Well, let's see how you get on with that. Thank you so much to Soma, for her time, openness. And that's incredible discussion about what leaders need to do about misogyny in the workplace and wider society. If you have been affected by anything that you've heard, there are links and resources on the everyone's invited website that will direct you to help, including the report abuse in education helpline. And the page that you're looking for is everyone's invited.uk forward slash help forward slash find help. And we'll include that link in the show notes. Paul Thomas 57:21 So we'll be back in a couple of weeks with a brand new episode. And in the meantime, you can find us on Twitter we're at Starts at the Top one. And you can also email us at starts at the top@gmail.com Zoe Amar 57:33 And if you listen to us on Apple podcasts or anywhere else that you get your podcasts you can rate and review, please do all your reviews help us to reach more listeners. I will speak to you again in a couple of weeks. See you then. Paul Thomas 57:46 Thank you very much. Bye Transcribed by https://otter.ai