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Ben Williams: Those things that help you understand your people
better is more motivating than any scheme you can put in place.
And you know what it comes down to is just showing that you care
when you care, people will stay.
Paul Thomas: Welcome to a brand new episode of Starts at the
Top, our podcast about leadership, digital and change.
I'm Paul Thomas,
Zoe Amar: And I'm Zoe Amar our podcast is all about leadership
and brings you interviews with leaders who we believe are
driving positive change in the world.
Paul Thomas: Change comes in many forms. And we're equally
interested in speaking to leaders who are making
incremental change that shifts the dial within their
organisations as we are about huge systemic changes that
impact the world of work. The driving force of what we do is
to share these stories across sectors so we can all learn from
each other.
Zoe Amar: Today we're sharing our conversation with Ben
Williams, CEO of Loopin a new platform that uses predictive
analytics and AI to help employers foresee and forestall
burnout and reduce employee turnover. I think this is gonna
be really interesting interview. Ben is a very compelling listen,
we love talking to him. And his background, as you may have
heard when he was previously on Diary of a CEO is as a Royal
Marine. So he's got a really interesting take on how
organisations approach leadership and leadership
training. And we found that really thought provoking. We
came away from our conversation inspired and energised by Ben,
and we hope you do too.
Paul Thomas: So Zoe we've both had a bit of time off over the
summer. Are your batteries fully recharged? And I guess on brand
with this? Did you listen to any good music and read any good
books?
Zoe Amar: I will answer your first question a bit recharged
but juggling kids and zoom calls and work definitely had
overtones of lockdown. I'm sure many of our listeners will have
been in the same boat. And yeah, I've been reading some really
interesting books. I've just started reading The Fun Habit by
Mike Rucker, who is obviously a former guest of ours. And I
think we're going to be doing a book special in a few weeks
time. So I can say a bit more about my thoughts on that book.
It's really worth reading. And some of the other books I've
been reading recently. How about you?
Paul Thomas: Yeah, so yeah, lots of books for preparation for
podcasts. We've got a good few authors coming up on the podcast
in the next few weeks. So that's been good, purely for pleasure.
And to get it finished. I was reading Cloud Cuckoo Land by
Anthony Doerr, I'm not sure how to pronounce his name, actually.
But that was a really good read if, if a bit all over the place,
it was one of those books that sort of tells you part of the
story over here and then moves to part of the story over there.
And then part of the story over here and just when you get a big
cliffhanger, you've got to wait five chapters to find out what
happens to the people you're following, but really good. I've
recommended it.
Completely, completely original. I think it was quite good. Yeah,
but other than that, catching up with my magazine subscriptions,
which is associated with music because I have a magazine
subscription to two Uncut it's the physical magazine that I
still hang on to and buy every month. But they've been stacking
up so I was by the pool reading interview articles about Nick
Drake and Elliott Smith and people like that...
Zoe Amar: Nice
Paul Thomas: ...enjoying listening to buy music while
reading. One of my favourite things is reading the reviews
and just flipping the music on and having a listen and seeing
what I think and what I make of it. So lots of new discoveries.
In tech news this week, Google turns 25
Zoe Amar: Wow.
Paul Thomas: 17 years since the term Google entered the
dictionary so my question to you Zoe, two questions, is what were
you likely to have been googling back in 1998. And remarkably,
288 products and services have been retired by Google since
they set up 25 years ago. So I wondered what Google service has
had the biggest impact on your world. But yeah, Googling back
in 1998?
Zoe Amar: Oh, goodness, me, I was so useless with technology
back in 1998. A few years after that, I started my very first
job working in an office. And I was so bad at using the firm's
IT systems that I used to call the IT Help Desk every single
day. It's honestly like some kind of therapy support line. It
was awful. So that's probably quite a career ending
confession. But yeah, I mean, goodness me probably not how to
use a computer was probably what I was getting back in 1998. I
have come a long way since then, obviously, I think the services
most useful for me has definitely been Google
workspace, which is the foundation in which our
businesse's build on. I really think that, you know, Google
Sheets, Google Docs, all of the collaboration tools. I feel that
they really lead where Microsoft followed, actually, in many
ways, so yeah, I think they are really good. The only thing I've
never been so sure about is the Gmail product, which I feel is a
bit like a consumer product that's been hacked into a
business one, I still think outlook is a bit easier to use.
How about you?
Paul Thomas: Well, definitely my searches in 1998 would all be
music focus, but also I graduated in 1998. So that...
Zoe Amar: Me too, me too!
Paul Thomas: So I probably would have been feverishly googling
How do I get a job where I can speak French, which is, which is
what my parents were after. I think they wanted you know, the
investment they put into to sending me to University had to
pay off. And so I yeah, I did found a tech job where I could
speak French, it was a web agency that needed a French
speaker. So that worked well. And in terms of products, I
don't know, not the biggest impact. But I think just
recently I've sort of fallen in love with Google Drive and being
able to access anything from anywhere and constantly updating
and upgrading my subscription so I've got enough data. But the
one I miss most of all was Picasa, which was great from a
storing photos point of view and sharing photos with people and
family as well. So I really, I really do miss that. I don't
think anything actually is come that close. But I don't I don't
invest time in Google Photos and things like that. So maybe there
is something that replaces it. But I mean, I am interested in
how they have progressed over the 25 years, every day, every
time I go into London, and I arrive in Kings Cross or Euston
and walk to Kings Cross. I walk past that massive building. And
I do wonder that massive new HQ alongside Kings Cross and I do
wonder how they're actually going to fill that with people.
Is it coming a few years too late? I'm sure you know, Google
will survive. But there are other organisations like open AI
stealing a march on AI and Chat GPT-3 sort of outstripping
Google's efforts so far, just go to you know, they've got some
good stuff out there. But not quite so much. And I think
Microsoft probably catching up a little bit as well, in terms of
their offer. And particularly when it comes to things like
Microsoft 365 just it's completely ubiquitous now, it's
really difficult, I guess, in a consultant role to find
organisations that aren't using that. So when you do come along
with the Google Suite, sometimes it can be quite difficult to
integrate how you work with with clients, because there are 365.
So I think, yeah, I do wonder whether there's a bit of a
refocus coming for, for that organisation, maybe they'll
rebrand call themselves, Zed or something, a completely changed
tack.
Zoe Amar: I think one of the big tests of them is going to be
when Bard gets fully switched on in workspace and how that then
inevitably gets compared to Co Pilot in the 365 suite. And we
know both of these things are going to come. It's going to be
over the next six months now surely.
Paul Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think Co Pilot is gonna be a
game changer for most of the organisations I work with from
what I can tell, you know, just if it can help people with
meeting minutes and I think it will, you know, that's gonna be
a game changer stuff like that, where you know, knowledge is
getting lost because people aren't necessarily following up
on things that have happened. I think it's going to be a really,
really crucial thing there. Also, open AI helped me with a
big brand issue. I'm changing my go to market brand for myself
and my business over the next few months and I brand some
stuff that I've written through Chat GPT-3. And it really helped
me with one line, particular line. It didn't do everything.
But there was one line that I was really struggling with. And
it came up with an option for that. I've just like you've
nailed it, which was quite interesting to accept that, you
know, aI had succeeded where I had failed. But, yeah, one line
in my new brand. I'll show I'll share it with people when it
happens. Is, is completely down to Chat GPT-3. Anyway...
Zoe Amar: Exciting!
Paul Thomas: Yeah! So now for our conversation with Ben
Williams of Loopin.
Zoe Amar: We are very excited to welcome Ben Williams, CEO and co
founder of Loopin to Starts at the Top. Ben is a best selling
author and leadership coach who has worked with the likes of
Gareth Southgate's England football team, Facebook and
Gymshark. Ben's book Commando Mindset is about helping people
to find their motivation, realise their potential and
achieve their goals with Loopin. Ben is using his command a
mindset experience as a former Royal Marine and partnering this
with real time AI to help combat burnout and empower managers to
promote wellbeing in the workplace. Ben's journey from
Battlefield to Boardroom is a fascinating one. And we're
looking forward to hearing more about that today. And Looping's
tech is making leadership knowledge and wisdom available
to people in more ways. With more and more teams going remote
in the post pandemic world, workplace cultures are changing.
And the necessity to keep teams connected through peer to peer
support is more important than ever. And that's one of the
things we're going to be discussing today. Ben has
previously appeared on Dragon's Den style Steven Bartlett's
podcast Diary of a CEO. So you may have heard him on that. And
he's currently recording a new podcast series called Morale in
Action, looking at how employers build and maintain morale as
subjects, which is also something that's come up a lot
in our conversations we've had in Starts at the Top as well. So
we're especially excited to be welcoming Ben to the podcast
today. Welcome, Ben.
Ben Williams: Thank you very much for having me on.
Zoe Amar: Thanks so much for making the time to chat today.
And so one of the things we wanted to kick off with is
obviously, you're doing a lot of work around, you know, how to
manage people in, you know, in a really kind of skillful way
that's especially important to this new world of work post
pandemic. And one of the things that we would have been talking
about within your team over the last few weeks is about that
specific skill of managing people. And reflecting on my
time in the workplace so far, it feels like a lot of that is very
organic, isn't it? How you'll learn about that kind of thing.
But I understand you got talked specifically about how to do
that in the marine. So can you take us back to when you learned
about management?
Ben Williams: Sure, I think management in the last couple of
years has been from almost quite a challenging subject in itself,
maybe two years ago, three years ago, before COVID, it was you're
either a leader or your manager, you know, you identify
as one more than the other, and you have a higher percentage of
the skill set compared to the other. And I think that's quite
a natural thing. Some people are more leaders than they are
managers and vice versa. I think what we've seen through the
pandemic, though, is this migration towards Oh, you need
to be a really efficient manager. But you also need to be
really good at leading people as well. And that means you have to
have empathy, you need to have that emotional intelligence to
understand how your hybrid team are feeling. What people are
thinking, how do people like to be coached? How do people like
to be led. And that's a really challenging environment. For a
manager when there's probably quite, I would argue, an
abundance of resources to equip people to be a good manager,
there's not the most amount of resources to equip them to be
good leaders. And so reflecting on my time in the military from
day one, literally day one of recruit training, you're in some
way or another inoculated to the skill set of management and
leadership.
And that can be just been what we call the duty recruit. So the
recruit who's going to step out to the right hand side of the
troop for the day, and when we marched from classroom to the
gymnasium or back to our accommodation, you know, it's
always there's a body of people, and there'll be that one
recruit, who will step out to the side and they'll carry the
bucket that's got all the keys for the lockers in and they'll
call out left, right. Left, right. And then nominated to be
that duty recruit, and that's from day one. So from day one,
you're experiencing, what it's like to put people in one place
to another through your instruction direction. And then
as you grow through your career, or through your recruit training
alone, you go through more camp based training scenarios through
to sort of live battlefield scenarios where your leadership
skillsets as a recruit, is still managing a team ensuring that
they've got the ammunition that there is tactical elements to it
as well. And so even within Royal Marines training, which is
32 weeks long, you'd go on this almost leadership and management
experience that you weren't expecting whatsoever. And even
at the end of training, you pass out and have what's called
King's Squad, which is the celebration of you becoming a
Royal Marines Commando. And some of you can pass out as diamonds
or a king's badge award which is an award given to those that are
particularly equipped to be good leaders and managers. And, and
that helps you immediately on your career pathway. And then,
you know, throughout my career, I found that when you go on a
leadership or management course, within the Marines, you were
already ready for it. So it almost turned into a box ticking
exercise a very correct box ticking exercise where you spent
the last two years maybe in a particular role, you've been
around a good sergeant or good Corp role, you've learned their
skill sets. They've mentored you how to have how to be a better
leader, be a better manager, you've learned those things
along the way. And then you go on a course, where you then
display what you've learned, and are tested on what you've
learned, you are then qualified, and then you go back and do your
job. And then and then it'll carry on till you become a
sergeant to become a colour sergeant, and so on, and so on.
I think the important lesson there is, within the military,
we're not perfect, there's always holes in the net. And
I've never say we're 100% great leaders and great managers, that
a military leadership is very management leadership based, you
have to be extremely effective at leading your people in the
field in some of the most challenging circumstances
imaginable. You also have to be very good at managing them on
camp to make sure that, okay, they got a training scenario
coming up, okay, where's all the kit, and process driven
behaviours as well. So it's that management experience. And my
belief is that the military, especially the Marines, because
it was my experience, we were really good at preparing our
people for leadership. And that's a difference. When I've
left the military and gone into the civilian world. Terrible at
that. And it's, it's almost like, Oh, you're promoted,
you're on the course, learn the stuff, go back and do it. And
it's very backward. You lose a lot of people through that, I
think, at the moment 85% of employees thinking or are
leaving their organisations due to how they're being led or
managed. Okay, so that has a massive bleed that needs
stemming within an organisation. And so my massive, my biggest
reflection on that is, how do you better prepare managers and
leaders for their next step up their next experience, and from
the military. That's what I learned about that pregame that
prepares that person, even if it's just through mentoring
through someone that they're associated with within the
business to learn good practices, best behaviours, to
then go do the official bit, and then go and do their job.
Zoe Amar: I think this is fascinating, because everything
you've described there about your experience in the military
is, and it sounds fantastic, rings a positive and inspiring
that it's a very deliberate, very intentional, really long
term skill that you're teaching people right from the day, they
enter the workforce. And it feels like the complete mirror
image of what I've seen happening in in some companies
is, as you described there, that it's very kind of organic, let's
throw a bit of leadership, a bit of Management at the wall and
see whether it sticks. And I love your point about people
being in the mindset of learning these skills, almost before
they're ready to learn these skills so that when they get to
the point where they are in that position where they need them,
they're ready to go. Right, all the foundations have been built.
Why isn't it like this in other sectors? Do you think why are
some companies getting this wrong?
Ben Williams: It's a great question. Saying it's a great
question. It's just the perfect podcast pause now, isn't it?
It'd be here that so...
Zoe Amar: Take your time Ben.
Ben Williams: It is a great question. And I've often sort of
looked at it myself when now being in tech, I'm having to
learn to lead and manage in a whole new way that I never
experienced. And it's kind of... in a startup, it feels a bit
making up on the fly. And one of our investors which came in
quite early on, bought an executive coach with him and
kind of his big caveat to his investment was you will have an
executive coach and every two to three weeks, what fits your
schedule to help you transition what effectively was me still
transitioning from the military, although I'd been out about a
year and a half I'd gone into running my own coaching
business. I was me. I was on my own.
You know, my leadership skill sets was still very much
military focused and I hadn't applied into the civilian world.
And then coming into a startup and having that opportunity to
have that training enabled me to turn my leadership practices
from what I've learned in the Corps, which is what we call the
Marines through to now running my own business. And by far,
it's been probably the most challenging thing I've ever
done.
Leading on frontlines, I think people misinterpret it as that
that's got to be the most harrowing, most challenging
thing you're going to face. And it is, of course, the
environments challenging the consequences are challenging,
the decision making is very efficient, because it's almost
pre programmed. And that's a result of all that training and
all that mentoring you've had all the way up until that point,
and we call it exposure equals composure. So the more you can
expose someone to a situation that causes adrenaline rush or
flight, or fight or flight or freeze response, that physical
mental reaction to something the more you can expose them to it
and train them in that environment, the more composed
they'll be, when essentially, something hits the fan. Now,
what I've noticed, within the civilian world across multiple
sectors, it is multi sector is you're not, I say you're, I say
we. We're not very good at exposing people to the
challenges they may face where they need to be composed as a
good leader. So what you have is you have Joe Bloggs, for
example, has just left university they've gone into a
new role is they spend a year or two in the position, they
performed really well. And so then promoted based off that
performance. Now all of a sudden, Joe Bloggs, who's only
had two years experience in the workplace, watching what goes on
around them. And maybe did rugby or netball or something like
that, at university is now having to learn leadership
principles they've never established them put into their
role. And then you're in. And then what happens is, and my
opinion, and what I've seen is what you have then is an
untrained person who's a specialist in their role, using
their ability in their skill in the role as almost there
ammunition to look effective in that place. And kind of looking
away from the leadership management responsibility,
because it has lots of tough things within it difficult
conversations.
The list is endless of how challenging the role can be. And
especially now it's more complex as your OKRs, or KPIs. Your
processes are now mixed with employee engagement, wellbeing,
retention, it's multifaceted. So then, if they're not prepared
for that they've not been exposed to those situations,
they're never going to be composed when it comes to a
challenging situation. And so my observation is why it misses is
because there's very little going into how do you help
sustain the improvement of that individuals, they lead up to
that responsibility. And we'll come on to it, I won't maybe go
into it just yet, but that's now where we're beginning to migrate
as a business with our technology is, as a coach, I go
in and provide a workshop which you get booked to do, let's say,
you provide a workshop on leadership, great, people are
going to sit there, they got half day off, we've got a couple
of hours. That's great. I know some things down. Three days
later, they're not going to remember who the speaker was,
they'll probably remember one point.
And then the company will say that some of this is online, so
you can access it if you want to go and see it. So your blended
learning experience of becoming a leader is almost this sheep
dip course or sheep dip experience, and then a massive
void between that holistic approach to resource online. And
it's that void that is imperative to improve the skill
set. So the Marines for example is, here's the information,
mental, mental, mental mental experience, compose, expose,
compose, expose, now you're on the job, off we go. That void in
the middle is the bit that misses. And if we can get that
void, right, with more effective and efficient blended learning,
such as you know, what we're doing now using AI to build
learning systems for people that you can interact with, related
to the situation that you're facing, you can equip them more
regularly and more efficiently. So when problems occur, they're
more prepared. And I think that's, it's a challenge, and
it's something that's missing. But equally, there's a huge
opportunity to improve how we do this in the workplace right now
with the you know, the revolution of AI and, and how
people operate in the workplace. So I wouldn't see it as a big
problem, actually. Now I see I see it as an opportunity that we
can revolutionise how we upskill managers and leaders in the
workplace.
Paul Thomas: It is interesting, isn't it? Thinking back to the
experience I had, I don't know how similar Zoe's experiences
and the experiences that I had before entering the workplace. I
mean, all those Saturday jobs, school, college, university
unless those employers unless those experiences have an
intentional leadership element to them. So for example, I
worked in McDonald's, one of the things in McDonald's is they
immediately start to teach you about leadership and team
management and those sorts of things. That's something that I
probably picked up there that I don't ever think about. But when
it comes to school and university, you're following an
academic path. You're not necessarily being taught in
those.
I was gonna call them soft skills, but Leadership isn't a
soft skill, is it? You're not really taught intentionally
around those things. You are, as you said, almost cherry picked
from, oh, well, he's showing leadership qualities, she's
showing leadership qualities. So she should be the captain of the
netball team, she could be her head girl, he could be head boy,
all of that stuff is sort of it's it's unintentional
leadership training, so you don't have that grounding.
Whereas what you're saying is, yeah, you might have been
through the school system, and that might have been you coming
out at the other end, but then you're, I think your word sheep
dipped in nearly nine months, 10 months of, of training,
specifically in how to deliver that, that nobody went during
the workplace really has. So it's all that on the fly
learning that we have.
It's exactly that on the fly. And I think we have a saying in
the Marines called no cuff's to tough which means there's
nothing you can make up that's too hard to make up and just get
on with it.
Ben Williams: Very much like kind of put the tracks down in
front of you know no cuff's to tough. But our sort of
leadership principle that's drummed into you from the staff
is actually a really simple mnemonic. It's JUBWICK. And it
stands for judgement bearing willpower, integrity, courage
and knowledge. Now, if you think about those, they're very,
they're almost quite values based. And it's, it identifies
that they throw the mnemonic together. So it says job with
but the J and the U fits together. So that judgement
piece is how do you judge a situation? You know, judging a
situation is how are we going left blank? Are we going right
flank? Or do we need to tactically withdraw? Judging the
situation is I know that person over there likes to be shouted
at I know that person over there with rather soft hand on the
shoulder. Are you okay? Judging the room. Understanding what
you're going into. And how are you going to react to that? And
I love talking about bearing, you know, bearing what we
attribute in the in the military is how do you show up? Is your
chest out? As your chin up? Are you looking like you're in
control? My sergeant major, he used to say to me, if you don't
know what is going on, at least look like you know what's going
on. And because that body language is that communication
piece that this is all falling apart. But if everyone looks at
me, they're going to look at me and think I've definitely got
control of the situation. So how you walk into room how you
operate in the field, that bearing peace, and then
integrity is an obvious one. We, excuse me, if you don't mind me
saying but it's, we call it your virginity in the Marines, you
can only lose it once. And so it's, it's, it's there as part
of our core DNA. And then you have courage, of course,
courage, leaders have courage, and then knowledge. Are you an
expert in what you're talking about? And if you're not, are
you seeking to improve that knowledge? And if you think
about that, you look at how complex the leadership learning
experience can be for employees, where you have these models and
these frameworks and these almost huge resources people
have got to go through when they're already strapped for
time where something as simple as where do you sit on job
where, where do you need to improve? What are you good at
judging the situation? How do you turn up if you turn up and
start moaning that you're making layoffs, they may be happening,
but you have to control yourself in that situation. So other
people feel more inspired, as opposed to in fear. And that's
all, when I get the opportunity, you know, maybe less so these
days, because I'm more involved in our technology and what we're
doing, but I still do speaking opportunities, I still do
workshops, and yesterday I was with one of the top football
teams talking about this, you know, we don't have leaders
here. Well you do, you've just not, you've not begun to nurture
them. And now you need to nurture and foster a leadership
ethos within your club, because that will give you the 1% more
than some of the others within the tier that you're in. So I
think that's what it really comes back to for me is Don't
overcomplicate it, you have to simplify it. And I always kind
of said to myself, and my own journey is I want to create my
leadership cocktail, where I'll watch one particular leader, and
they'll do some great things. And I think I'm going to take a
little bit of that and put it into my cocktail, but they did
that thing. That's rubbish that's going in the bin. That
person is really good at that and being very aware and self
aware to be around the good leaders, those that get followed
by others as well. And not maybe the sort of more negative and
brutal ones which you can come across definitely within the
Marines. And I think that's that part as well. Making your
cocktail as you go along of what do you put in there to make you
the leader that you are, there's not a set framework, there's not
a set where you have to be it's quite subjective. And JUBWICK is
a really great way of unearthing that within yourself.
Paul Thomas: And it's interesting as well, just
thinking, as you're talking the the amount of leaders that we
have coming on to the podcast to talk about things like impostor
syndrome. And, yeah, one thing that we've noticed since the
pandemic is more leaders really accepting of the fact that they
know nothing, and they surround themselves by experts who know
stuff. They are the person, as you said, that walks in the room
with their chest out their head held high, and is able to hold
it together from a leadership point of view plus, not
necessarily having all the answers. And I think that that
sort of, as you were talking there, just thinking about the
amount of people that talk about impostor syndrome. Yeah, I look
like I'm walking into the room with attitude. But that's half
the battle, isn't it?
Ben Williams: Yeah, I, all the time, I say I'm the rifleman,
that's what I learned that's what I spent 10 years doing is
on the front line now running a tech company as CEO when, when
we came into it, and people started doing we're doing Agile
sprints, I thought that was somehow running in a particular
way across the field, on one foot being agile around the
house, an agile sprint, and having to learn all these
things. And, you know, you feel like you can ask stupid
questions, and the CTO will look at you and like, you don't know
what JavaScript is, nope. Thought it was a type of coffee.
And then, you know, you just learn as you go, but I think you
have to be really accepting of imposter syndrome. I think
you're, I think you're really right, as well as the last
couple of years, people have sort of gone. Actually, I kind
of don't know much. And I need to surround myself with people
who know particular things. And that's fine. Like, that's not a
problem. The worst thing is thinking the imposter is eating
away at you. You can't speak up. And then you have to try and
almost overcompensate for the areas you lacking. But half the
fun is not knowing the thing to then go and learn. And I think
it's more and more inspiring when leaders come through and
start to be much more open and honest in that way. Because it's
actually when we talk about well being and mental health as well,
that's completely linked to it. You know, you can really hammer
your own mental health and well being, because you're negatively
talking to yourself internally, because you're saying you can't
do this, you're not equipped to be here, they're going to find
you out soon. That moment you go, they've probably already
found me out. And now I'm just going to learn as I go, is where
you accept that failing or that lack of understanding. And then
you go and equip yourself.
And I've been in situations when the enemy are trying to get you
and you do think, Do I deserve to be here? How do I be here?
How do I show up in this situation, if I get this bit
wrong, you know, the consequences are dire. But you,
you think through that situation, you you accept that
you might not know what's around the corner, and there could be a
consequence of that. But you'll do your job to the highest
stability to ensure that you can try and get home now that's a
very extreme example. I am. I'm fascinated by the Ben Francis
journey from Gymshark, I think when he stepped down from CEOs
to go around the business and learn about his business and
learn about department owners, and sit down with Steve who
became the CEO to learn what it's like to be a CEO. It was
such a fine display of I have impostor syndrome, I don't
understand what I'm doing a particular part of the business,
I'm going to go and learn. I'm going to enjoy learning, I'm
going to spend two to three years in my business building
that skill set up. And then I'm going to take back over the
reins like we should all be doing that. And I think the more
people like that, who speak openly about, you see me we see
them as a high performer, openly say I've got massive impostor
syndrome, I've got no idea how I raise all this money and how
we've got here and why we're doing this. And we're kind of
just go in as we go. People really gravitate towards that.
Because it's integral, it's transparent and honest. And I
think that's where our true leaders shine through.
Zoe Amar: And what you've described there with Gymshark
and some of the other moments that you've faced, it's a great
act of leadership in itself, isn't it? Because you're sending
out that signal to people it's okay not to be the finished
article. And actually, one of your purposes in this
organisation is about learning and saying that you're not
afraid to learn.
Ben Williams: But it's also how you position it in yourself. So
what and even within your organisation. So from outside
looking in, through the barbed wire fences of the Royal Marines
camp, there's probably the expectation that one of the
values could be perfection to some degree. Now, that must be
factual. If it if they're not perfect, someone gets injured or
killed. Whereas actually what the value is, is excellent,
because perfection is unachievable. You're never going
to achieve perfection and those that do strive to achieve
perfection aren't happy people because it's unobtainable you,
you could argue there are elements in life where
perfection is absolutely key. Otherwise, you'll see the dire
consequences of it going wrong. But let's be really honest,
perfection doesn't truly exist in most of our lives. But what
we strive for in the Marines is excellence. So to think you're
the finished article is untrue, you are not the finished
article, you always have capacity to learn. If you think
you're the finished article, you have arrogance and ego. Instead
of humility that enables you to go Whew, I could always learn
that 1% more. And my Corporal said that in trainings, you
know, they said, if you're learning nought point, 1%, every
single day, you're improving, even if it's sub zero, you
should always be thinking like that. And it always stuck with
me, because one of our other core values is humility. So you
have got to have that humility to learn all the time. But
understanding, there is never a finished article. There's always
someone bigger and stronger and faster and more knowledgeable
than you in the world. And it's a great opportunity to strive
for that excellence instead of that perfection. And think,
again, going back to the point about imposter, linking that
then to excellence is what do you then set across your
business that other people look up to, and it inspires them. So
if you have a leader who goes, I don't really know much of this
stuff, I'm learning as I go just like yourselves, and you can
really feel its integrity and truth. What that then does is
inspires people around the organisation to go well, if he
or she can get there, so can I and I feel compelled to and I
feel inspired, I feel safe to do so. As opposed to that person is
the slickest operator I've ever seen. They never seem to drop
anything. Well, they're going to be way better than me. So I
might as well carry on doing what I'm doing. And I think
that's the challenge people face. It's about opening up that
idea of being, driving that excellence, constantly learning
and inspiring people to be open about their own failings just
create some of the best leaders you'll ever meet.
Paul Thomas: I was just going to ask, because I know you've
mentioned earlier on you're doing some work with football
teams. And as you were talking there. Zoey always likes to
know, yeah, Zoey encourages me to put more football into these
podcasts. And it does come up time and time again. But there's
so many parallels with what we're seeing. So I'm an Arsenal
fan. What that was seeing with that team. But what we're seeing
with that team at the moment, is that resetting of that
expectation, and everything that I hear around the club is that
striving for excellence rather than being the finished article.
And that is coming from the top. But it's also being seen on the
pitch with the players that are coming in and that sort of
ethos. So can you tell us a bit more about the work that you're
doing with... Obviously not giving away any confidential
information but with with football clubs, and sports
clubs? What what are they looking for from you? Is it that
sense of leading from example? And through excellence? You said
to get that extra 1%? What is it that they are looking for from
from you?
Ben Williams: Sure, and just say, so, we work during this
kind of offseason and preseason stage with clubs as part of one
of our services that we have in the business, so it's still
we're very much across the here's our tech, this is what we
do. This is how we use technology to improve learning
within the workplace. And also then what's the hands on
holistic approach. And so doing that with data allows you to
target that specific problem better. So just so listeners are
clear, and a coaching company or a tech company, it's a full
suite of services. With Sport there's so many parallels to the
military as you can imagine this high performance environment.
It's very competitive. The military is very competitive.
It's very mission focused. It's very objective focus. It wants
to win. And they're machines, and they're facing a particular
direction. What I've come to see in the last couple of years, and
this started when we did some work with England football and
when Gareth came in, was England, football was
notoriously bad for its culture, where tables would be Manchester
United. Other tables would be Chelsea. Other tables would be
spares. And you can see it in their performances when you look
back and it's quite well documented now over those years,
especially that kind of Beckham era and as it's moving more
towards Gareth southgate's tenure was these tables would
sit apart they wouldn't talk it was all about the Premier League
and kind of England was this box we need to take and hopefully we
could win the World Cup. When Gareth came and joined us in the
Marines for a while with the squad, it was all about learning
about our values and how we create that united identity that
enables us to face any situation. And very much,
brother first self last. So you sacrifice yourself in front of
anyone else within the team. And it was about wearing the badge
of honour and a value attributed to each line. So when you put
the shirt on, you're not putting your country's lines on, you're
putting on a particular value set that you as a club set. And
that's now steeped in its culture. In fact, I was with
Swansea Football Club yesterday. And we're starting a project
with them over the season to develop their culture across the
entire football club. So from grassroots Academy all the way
through to the pro team, catering, security, everything
is all around what is that culture that's going to make us
better than the rest because in sport, top six, maybe, but
there's so much money available, that some clubs are just buying
success. Now for the remainder, most are pretty much on the same
level to a degree across the championship in the Premier
League, that's for sure. And although money might still be a
contributing factor, if we're really honest, those teams are
usually quite level to a degree. And so then you have to look at
especially in the championship, you then look at what's your
edge then, because everyone's as fit as each other now. Everyone
knows the tactics and can play in particular ways. We've got
the most current and up to date technology to understand. So all
the metrics and data are great, and our physicality great. But
the 1% comes not just from your mindset, but the culture of the
club, can you go in and give each other hard feedback? And
you'd have the humility to take it and go, Yeah, you're right, I
did do that wrong. And it's not an argument. It's not a fight.
It's an opportunity to grow. Can the youngest player do that to
the most senior player and vice versa? And can you in some way,
talk to the manager and get some response back of what to do next
with the team and how to improve the next game. And for us,
that's what it's about. It's, it's about creating that culture
in a high tempo organisation that has a turnover, that
probably is way higher than any tech company right now, because
of the draft systems. So how do you create that, and if you look
at England, there's probably since I worked with them, five,
maybe six players still kicking around who were there when I was
there. A lot of new blood, a lot of new talent, some of the staff
changed, but they've still got that culture, they still got
those three values that underpin what England football's about.
And, and much like what arsenal is doing and some of the other
clubs and where I'm working now, is really trying to identify
that actually, your culture is the thing that's going to push
you forward to win now, against all the odds of the money, or
the tactics and the skills and the data. And I think my final
point on the football side is you just have to look at Luton,
spending some time with players yesterday who have just come
from there. One of them from the operations team, and another was
one of the players said it's just an underdog spirit. And
that underdog spirit was infectious across the whole
club. They had three pay tiers. So you either knew you're on X
tier, Y tier or Z tier, there was no you've got more than me,
and I've got more than you and all that stuff. And it was a
very humble club. And it's gone from the lowest leagues to now
Premier League, and it stadiums is in a counsil state. So with
the houses built into the stands, you know, it's just
completely underdog but it was all down to their culture. And
that's quite often for many clubs, the missing ingredient.
Zoe Amar: It's incredible, isn't it? So it's really about culture
as a competitive advantage.
Ben Williams: Could it be USP in a in a game where everyone
focuses on the data.
Zoe Amar: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. It's so interesting were
talking to charity CO, actually, in a few weeks where they put
culture absolutely front and centre of, of what they've done
in helping their organisation move forward. So yeah,
absolutely. I think that's, that's such a key point. So I
suppose that takes us on really nicely to Loopin. Can you tell
us a bit more about what it is and how it works in practice?
Ben Williams: Yeah, sure. So we now have two product offerings.
We've started to bring a new product offering recently, which
I'll come on to, but Loopin basically started as Genesis
came from the coaching environment. So in between,
leaving the Marines and starting Loopin, there was a bit of time
there a couple of years, where I went into coaching with my
business partner, and we did some great work. We worked back
with England, some of the football academies, you know,
high professional sport, we ran a huge multi 1000 person
national engaged programme for one of the banks we were working
with Meta. And we were learning some key things that hang on,
you're losing loads of people here, people are disengaged
because of managers. But we can't just say all managers are
crap, and have that kind of throwaway comment. Because
they've been promoted on metrics, we have to find a new
way to help them be great leaders, as we've discussed on
this podcast. So then, when the pandemic swung in the Genesis
was, well, we're going to be sat on our hands for a while, and no
one really knows what's going on, can we, during that time,
look at a technical solution that could possibly fill the
void that we speak of that could create something more for people
that just go on a course or just read something online. And
that's ultimately where Loopin began. And for us as Marines, it
began with looking after one another. So sentiment, how do
people feel? So fast forward a couple of years, I won't argue
it's been a challenging couple of years. But we're now starting
to see the fruits of our labour, in the sense of when we first
started, people were saying to us, you're going to ask
employees how they feel, and share it with the team? And we
were like, Yeah, because it links to high performance. And
it was a bumpy, hard start. But we got there. And essentially,
what Loopin does it ask people how they are, how they're
feeling about their day or their week, takes that dat, in some
cases, it anonymizes it if you want to be on private mode, or
if it's open, if you want to be seen, puts it within a kind of
social space within your team through Slack channels, and
through our platform. And you can see how people are and we
kind of prompt and promote people to actually check in on
one another and like comments and lends support and build that
connection between people in the workplace how they're feeling.
Now, it's kind of evolved over the last six to nine months as
AI started coming in. Because then we thought, well, can we
take that data and can we apply that data to AI models that are
trained on particular resources, such as leadership development,
or personal development, wellbeing, and then kickback a
personalised response to that individual? So maybe they're an
employee who's just having a bit of a 'meh' time at the moment,
and you can create a personalised resource for that
individual through AI to help support them? What about the
manager who's overwhelmed and has, you know, all these plates
to spin and now they've got insights to look at about how
their employees are feeling. Thanks for adding something more
to my plate. Well, we condense that information. And we pass
the value to the manager in the sense of, hey, we know you're
busy. Here's three things you might want to consider this
week, here's who you need to talk to, here's who you can
leave alone. And this is what to say. And so as the idea is
creating that journey, where that's fine people, I've had
people challenging me going, Oh, now we're getting managers to
get robots to just do it for them. No, no, what you're doing
is you're making their time more efficient, pointing out where
they need to go and put action where they can mitigate risks,
and where they can just carry on like normal. And that's really
helpful. So that's essentially what Loopin evolved into. And
then most recently, in the last sort of six to seven weeks, we
launched our new product that fits under the Loopin and brand.
And we call it Loopin knowledge at the moment, but it's moving
quite quickly. And we're soon to change the brand name. But that
side, what we've essentially began to do is train these
models, but for coaches for training companies, for
individuals. So what we essentially did was we took my
book commander mindset, nice plug, available all retailers,
we trained the digital version of the book into an AI model,
took out a chat interface, and branded it up all in the
commando mindset branding. And now you can go in almost like a
commando mindset GPT. It's, it's the only thing it's trained on
is my book. We've trained in my persona, and how I speak and my
tone. And now you can go in and ask the book questions and get
answers based off what you're experiencing. So we played with
that. And we thought, well, that's quite a smart thing to
do. I wonder if other people would need or want something
like that. So we took it to the coaching community and said,
Anyone interested in putting your content into a digital
experience? And of course, they're limited to eight hours a
day they they're within those voids that I spoke about
earlier? Can they make first off their content, a passive income.
Second off, can they make their content more accessible and more
personalised? So immediately, we started building for the
training and coaching community, and then it's kind of widened up
which we maybe anticipated maybe didn't at this speed. But sales
handbooks playbooks. I'm on a call. I'm a young employee. I've
just got this job. I've got this objection. I don't want to ask
my manager. I don't want to delay the process. Can I ask the
handbook so you train the handbook into the AI. And so it
just broadens and widens our ability to help people learn
more effectively and efficiently in the workplace. And so you go
back to what we were talking about around the voids, you have
some training, whether that sales, training, leadership
training, wellbeing training, and then there's a void, and
there's some resources you can go and visit, if you're
interested or have time, well, what we've done is essentially
plugging into that void and experience that just doesn't
exist at the moment where you can interact with the content
that you've been trained on or taught, that's going to make you
more effective and more efficient. So it's really
starting to rock it for us. And, you know, we're humbled by that.
But we know we use an AI for good to be able to help improve
that learning and training environment across multiple
sectors and industries, to speed up the process, and I think
that's what, you know, definitely a CFO is looking for
at the moment, and the CEO and the COO's. They want that
efficiency within the business. So that's ultimately where
Loopin's migrated towards.
Zoe Amar: That's really exciting. And we'll put some
links to all things Loopin in the shownotes for anyone who'd
like to find out more. Ben, this has been fascinating. Thank you,
before we wrap up just briefly, for any leaders out there who
might be thinking, Gosh, my staff in here are really
difficult time over the last few years, and I'm struggling to
motivate them. What's the one thing you would recommend they
do?
Ben Williams: That's another great question. I was speaking
to someone about this the other day, actually, around
motivation. And actually, discipline eats motivation for
breakfast, anyone can be motivated for 10 minutes. What
most companies are experiencing at the moment is that end of the
honeymoon period, it's that classic, I'm on a health kick.
So I'm going to set my alarm for five tomorrow and go to the gym,
and then the alarm goes off and so... nah... or you might do it
for a couple of weeks. And then you hit that phase, I think
where we're at from what we're seeing is, there was this
excitement, I believe, when we came out of COVID, that we're
back, we're in the office, we've got this hybrid blend, amazing,
like I kind of can work from home. But I can also go in the
office, this feels great. And we went through this honeymoon
period, where all felt quite rosy. And then there was this
lingering crash inbound and the recession heading our way. And
then we need people back in the workplace, this many days of the
week, and then the layoffs began happening, there was an
inevitable crash that was going to come from an experience that
none of us have had, or the generation you haven't had since
World War II. And it's gonna come with its consequences, not
just during the moment, but after the moment. And I believe
what many leaders are probably now feeling the real pain of is
everything tightening, you know, financially, personnel wise
resources. And people just weighing in, we haven't
recovered from COVID. And if I look back on my military
experience, when does the PTSD kick in? When does the post
traumatic stress happen? When does the anxiety come from it
doesn't come from the battlefield, it doesn't happen
there. That's the trigger. It's six months is 12 months. It's
three years later, where people start to have flashbacks. And
what we're what I believe we're going through is we've been
through our trauma. We've all been through our battlefield,
we've had that exciting moment of getting home away from the
battlefield, which is this release out of COVID. And now
it's back to normality, where what happened on the battlefield
for all of us is catching up. So I almost don't have an answer,
because what I believe is happening is something
unprecedented. People don't know how to navigate this motivation,
because the financial incentives aren't what they were. There's,
there's just awful things happen around the world. And I don't,
so not to end on a low because I'll definitely bring this up.
Because you've asked me how to motivate people. I said, you
can't, and everything's on its ass. It's not that at all. But
what we now need to look for is new, more dynamic and subjective
ways to motivate people. It can't be abroad, let's have a
wellbeing scheme. Let's do this. Let's do that. Managers and
leaders are going to have to get into their teams, and understand
what is kicking people, what's hurting people and what's
motivating people. Because all of us have got our own games
now. And when you don't get in and unearth that you'll just
create this selfish, siloed individualistic group of people
within their company that will go into survival self defence
mode, where what you want is to be that leader who's in that
What are you suffering with? What where can I help you? Where
can I take something off your plate? And that starts at the
manager who runs three people teams through to the CEO who can
walk the floor and go and visit people. It's so motivating when
someone who leaves your team knows your dog's name, or
understands that your children are about to start X school. And
that's the bit that will motivate people. Now when
they're almost on their asses to come in and go, I heard you're
training for that marathon. That's awesome. Can we support
you? Can we add a donation to whatever you're doing it for?
That's brilliant, how's your dog Loopin, getting on? It's more of
an owl. But those things that help you understand your people
better is more motivating than any scheme you can put in place.
And you know, what it comes down to is just showing that you
care. That's how you motivate people in the workplace at the
moment, don't ever over engineer it, or make it hard, make it
complex. Go and care when you care, people will stay.
Paul Thomas: That's a brilliant answer, Ben, thank you. I mean,
it's such a thoughtful response, it has actually made me
completely rethink the question. Because what you've maybe
considered there is actually the motivation is not something that
the leader imposes on the team. It's actually ultimately about
your own motivation as leaders, my motivation has got to be I
got to understand my team and help them feel seen whatever
stage they're at, in this post pandemic processing modes we're
all in right now. So that's a great note to end on. I actually
think it is a really positive one. So thank you.
Ben Williams: You're more than welcome. Thank you very much for
having me on.
Paul Thomas: Thank you so much to Ben and his team at Loopin to
making the time to come on to the podcast. You can find more
information about Loopin via the links will share in the show
notes or let'sloopin.com That's let'sloopin.com.
Zoe Amar: We'll be back in a fortnight with a brand new
episode, this time speaking to Alice Kershaw, of the Wildlife
Trust so stay tuned for that one.
Paul Thomas: You can support the podcast by leaving us a five
star review. Please. Wherever you listen to us whether that's
Apple podcasts Spotify or Google they're doing podcasts as well
you know these days but yeah, little known pretender in the
podcast market. But thank you for listening.
Zoe Amar: Thank you for listening. See you in a couple
of weeks.