Zoe Amar 0:04 We are delighted that episode of Starts at the Top is sponsored by Arvato CRM Solutions. Arvato CRM Solutions designs and delivers award winning customer service, business process outsourcing, and digital and Intelligent Automation solutions with some of the world's most respected brands, as well as innovative charity and public sector clients. They partner with clients to help them define their customer experience and transformation strategies by implementing the right technology, people and processes to improve their customer journey while driving new efficiencies and helping them prepare for the future. To find out more about how Arvato CRM Solutions could help an organisation like yours, and to receive a free no obligation chat, visit arvato.co.uk/walesairambulance Ben Williams 1:14 Those things that help you understand your people better is more motivating than any scheme you can put in place. And you know what it comes down to is just showing that you care when you care, people will stay. Paul Thomas 1:28 Welcome to a brand new episode of Starts at the Top, our podcast about leadership, digital and change. I'm Paul Thomas, Zoe Amar 1:35 And I'm Zoe Amar our podcast is all about leadership and brings you interviews with leaders who we believe are driving positive change in the world. Paul Thomas 1:45 Change comes in many forms. And we're equally interested in speaking to leaders who are making incremental change that shifts the dial within their organisations as we are about huge systemic changes that impact the world of work. The driving force of what we do is to share these stories across sectors so we can all learn from each other. Zoe Amar 2:02 Today we're sharing our conversation with Ben Williams, CEO of Loopin a new platform that uses predictive analytics and AI to help employers foresee and forestall burnout and reduce employee turnover. I think this is gonna be really interesting interview. Ben is a very compelling listen, we love talking to him. And his background, as you may have heard when he was previously on Diary of a CEO is as a Royal Marine. So he's got a really interesting take on how organisations approach leadership and leadership training. And we found that really thought provoking. We came away from our conversation inspired and energised by Ben, and we hope you do too. Paul Thomas 2:41 So Zoe we've both had a bit of time off over the summer. Are your batteries fully recharged? And I guess on brand with this? Did you listen to any good music and read any good books? Zoe Amar 2:52 I will answer your first question a bit recharged but juggling kids and zoom calls and work definitely had overtones of lockdown. I'm sure many of our listeners will have been in the same boat. And yeah, I've been reading some really interesting books. I've just started reading The Fun Habit by Mike Rucker, who is obviously a former guest of ours. And I think we're going to be doing a book special in a few weeks time. So I can say a bit more about my thoughts on that book. It's really worth reading. And some of the other books I've been reading recently. How about you? Paul Thomas 3:27 Yeah, so yeah, lots of books for preparation for podcasts. We've got a good few authors coming up on the podcast in the next few weeks. So that's been good, purely for pleasure. And to get it finished. I was reading Cloud Cuckoo Land by Anthony Doerr, I'm not sure how to pronounce his name, actually. But that was a really good read if, if a bit all over the place, it was one of those books that sort of tells you part of the story over here and then moves to part of the story over there. And then part of the story over here and just when you get a big cliffhanger, you've got to wait five chapters to find out what happens to the people you're following, but really good. I've recommended it. Completely, completely original. I think it was quite good. Yeah, but other than that, catching up with my magazine subscriptions, which is associated with music because I have a magazine subscription to two Uncut it's the physical magazine that I still hang on to and buy every month. But they've been stacking up so I was by the pool reading interview articles about Nick Drake and Elliott Smith and people like that... Zoe Amar 4:30 Nice Paul Thomas 4:31 ...enjoying listening to buy music while reading. One of my favourite things is reading the reviews and just flipping the music on and having a listen and seeing what I think and what I make of it. So lots of new discoveries. In tech news this week, Google turns 25 Zoe Amar 4:47 Wow. Paul Thomas 4:48 17 years since the term Google entered the dictionary so my question to you Zoe, two questions, is what were you likely to have been googling back in 1998. And remarkably, 288 products and services have been retired by Google since they set up 25 years ago. So I wondered what Google service has had the biggest impact on your world. But yeah, Googling back in 1998? Zoe Amar 5:16 Oh, goodness, me, I was so useless with technology back in 1998. A few years after that, I started my very first job working in an office. And I was so bad at using the firm's IT systems that I used to call the IT Help Desk every single day. It's honestly like some kind of therapy support line. It was awful. So that's probably quite a career ending confession. But yeah, I mean, goodness me probably not how to use a computer was probably what I was getting back in 1998. I have come a long way since then, obviously, I think the services most useful for me has definitely been Google workspace, which is the foundation in which our businesse's build on. I really think that, you know, Google Sheets, Google Docs, all of the collaboration tools. I feel that they really lead where Microsoft followed, actually, in many ways, so yeah, I think they are really good. The only thing I've never been so sure about is the Gmail product, which I feel is a bit like a consumer product that's been hacked into a business one, I still think outlook is a bit easier to use. How about you? Paul Thomas 6:30 Well, definitely my searches in 1998 would all be music focus, but also I graduated in 1998. So that... Zoe Amar 6:38 Me too, me too! Paul Thomas 6:40 So I probably would have been feverishly googling How do I get a job where I can speak French, which is, which is what my parents were after. I think they wanted you know, the investment they put into to sending me to University had to pay off. And so I yeah, I did found a tech job where I could speak French, it was a web agency that needed a French speaker. So that worked well. And in terms of products, I don't know, not the biggest impact. But I think just recently I've sort of fallen in love with Google Drive and being able to access anything from anywhere and constantly updating and upgrading my subscription so I've got enough data. But the one I miss most of all was Picasa, which was great from a storing photos point of view and sharing photos with people and family as well. So I really, I really do miss that. I don't think anything actually is come that close. But I don't I don't invest time in Google Photos and things like that. So maybe there is something that replaces it. But I mean, I am interested in how they have progressed over the 25 years, every day, every time I go into London, and I arrive in Kings Cross or Euston and walk to Kings Cross. I walk past that massive building. And I do wonder that massive new HQ alongside Kings Cross and I do wonder how they're actually going to fill that with people. Is it coming a few years too late? I'm sure you know, Google will survive. But there are other organisations like open AI stealing a march on AI and Chat GPT-3 sort of outstripping Google's efforts so far, just go to you know, they've got some good stuff out there. But not quite so much. And I think Microsoft probably catching up a little bit as well, in terms of their offer. And particularly when it comes to things like Microsoft 365 just it's completely ubiquitous now, it's really difficult, I guess, in a consultant role to find organisations that aren't using that. So when you do come along with the Google Suite, sometimes it can be quite difficult to integrate how you work with with clients, because there are 365. So I think, yeah, I do wonder whether there's a bit of a refocus coming for, for that organisation, maybe they'll rebrand call themselves, Zed or something, a completely changed tack. Zoe Amar 9:01 I think one of the big tests of them is going to be when Bard gets fully switched on in workspace and how that then inevitably gets compared to Co Pilot in the 365 suite. And we know both of these things are going to come. It's going to be over the next six months now surely. Paul Thomas 9:21 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think Co Pilot is gonna be a game changer for most of the organisations I work with from what I can tell, you know, just if it can help people with meeting minutes and I think it will, you know, that's gonna be a game changer stuff like that, where you know, knowledge is getting lost because people aren't necessarily following up on things that have happened. I think it's going to be a really, really crucial thing there. Also, open AI helped me with a big brand issue. I'm changing my go to market brand for myself and my business over the next few months and I brand some stuff that I've written through Chat GPT-3. And it really helped me with one line, particular line. It didn't do everything. But there was one line that I was really struggling with. And it came up with an option for that. I've just like you've nailed it, which was quite interesting to accept that, you know, aI had succeeded where I had failed. But, yeah, one line in my new brand. I'll show I'll share it with people when it happens. Is, is completely down to Chat GPT-3. Anyway... Zoe Amar 10:31 Exciting! Paul Thomas 10:32 Yeah! So now for our conversation with Ben Williams of Loopin. Zoe Amar 10:37 We are very excited to welcome Ben Williams, CEO and co founder of Loopin to Starts at the Top. Ben is a best selling author and leadership coach who has worked with the likes of Gareth Southgate's England football team, Facebook and Gymshark. Ben's book Commando Mindset is about helping people to find their motivation, realise their potential and achieve their goals with Loopin. Ben is using his command a mindset experience as a former Royal Marine and partnering this with real time AI to help combat burnout and empower managers to promote wellbeing in the workplace. Ben's journey from Battlefield to Boardroom is a fascinating one. And we're looking forward to hearing more about that today. And Looping's tech is making leadership knowledge and wisdom available to people in more ways. With more and more teams going remote in the post pandemic world, workplace cultures are changing. And the necessity to keep teams connected through peer to peer support is more important than ever. And that's one of the things we're going to be discussing today. Ben has previously appeared on Dragon's Den style Steven Bartlett's podcast Diary of a CEO. So you may have heard him on that. And he's currently recording a new podcast series called Morale in Action, looking at how employers build and maintain morale as subjects, which is also something that's come up a lot in our conversations we've had in Starts at the Top as well. So we're especially excited to be welcoming Ben to the podcast today. Welcome, Ben. Ben Williams 12:11 Thank you very much for having me on. Zoe Amar 12:13 Thanks so much for making the time to chat today. And so one of the things we wanted to kick off with is obviously, you're doing a lot of work around, you know, how to manage people in, you know, in a really kind of skillful way that's especially important to this new world of work post pandemic. And one of the things that we would have been talking about within your team over the last few weeks is about that specific skill of managing people. And reflecting on my time in the workplace so far, it feels like a lot of that is very organic, isn't it? How you'll learn about that kind of thing. But I understand you got talked specifically about how to do that in the marine. So can you take us back to when you learned about management? Ben Williams 13:00 Sure, I think management in the last couple of years has been from almost quite a challenging subject in itself, maybe two years ago, three years ago, before COVID, it was you're either a leader or your manager, you know, you identify as one more than the other, and you have a higher percentage of the skill set compared to the other. And I think that's quite a natural thing. Some people are more leaders than they are managers and vice versa. I think what we've seen through the pandemic, though, is this migration towards Oh, you need to be a really efficient manager. But you also need to be really good at leading people as well. And that means you have to have empathy, you need to have that emotional intelligence to understand how your hybrid team are feeling. What people are thinking, how do people like to be coached? How do people like to be led. And that's a really challenging environment. For a manager when there's probably quite, I would argue, an abundance of resources to equip people to be a good manager, there's not the most amount of resources to equip them to be good leaders. And so reflecting on my time in the military from day one, literally day one of recruit training, you're in some way or another inoculated to the skill set of management and leadership. And that can be just been what we call the duty recruit. So the recruit who's going to step out to the right hand side of the troop for the day, and when we marched from classroom to the gymnasium or back to our accommodation, you know, it's always there's a body of people, and there'll be that one recruit, who will step out to the side and they'll carry the bucket that's got all the keys for the lockers in and they'll call out left, right. Left, right. And then nominated to be that duty recruit, and that's from day one. So from day one, you're experiencing, what it's like to put people in one place to another through your instruction direction. And then as you grow through your career, or through your recruit training alone, you go through more camp based training scenarios through to sort of live battlefield scenarios where your leadership skillsets as a recruit, is still managing a team ensuring that they've got the ammunition that there is tactical elements to it as well. And so even within Royal Marines training, which is 32 weeks long, you'd go on this almost leadership and management experience that you weren't expecting whatsoever. And even at the end of training, you pass out and have what's called King's Squad, which is the celebration of you becoming a Royal Marines Commando. And some of you can pass out as diamonds or a king's badge award which is an award given to those that are particularly equipped to be good leaders and managers. And, and that helps you immediately on your career pathway. And then, you know, throughout my career, I found that when you go on a leadership or management course, within the Marines, you were already ready for it. So it almost turned into a box ticking exercise a very correct box ticking exercise where you spent the last two years maybe in a particular role, you've been around a good sergeant or good Corp role, you've learned their skill sets. They've mentored you how to have how to be a better leader, be a better manager, you've learned those things along the way. And then you go on a course, where you then display what you've learned, and are tested on what you've learned, you are then qualified, and then you go back and do your job. And then and then it'll carry on till you become a sergeant to become a colour sergeant, and so on, and so on. I think the important lesson there is, within the military, we're not perfect, there's always holes in the net. And I've never say we're 100% great leaders and great managers, that a military leadership is very management leadership based, you have to be extremely effective at leading your people in the field in some of the most challenging circumstances imaginable. You also have to be very good at managing them on camp to make sure that, okay, they got a training scenario coming up, okay, where's all the kit, and process driven behaviours as well. So it's that management experience. And my belief is that the military, especially the Marines, because it was my experience, we were really good at preparing our people for leadership. And that's a difference. When I've left the military and gone into the civilian world. Terrible at that. And it's, it's almost like, Oh, you're promoted, you're on the course, learn the stuff, go back and do it. And it's very backward. You lose a lot of people through that, I think, at the moment 85% of employees thinking or are leaving their organisations due to how they're being led or managed. Okay, so that has a massive bleed that needs stemming within an organisation. And so my massive, my biggest reflection on that is, how do you better prepare managers and leaders for their next step up their next experience, and from the military. That's what I learned about that pregame that prepares that person, even if it's just through mentoring through someone that they're associated with within the business to learn good practices, best behaviours, to then go do the official bit, and then go and do their job. Zoe Amar 17:56 I think this is fascinating, because everything you've described there about your experience in the military is, and it sounds fantastic, rings a positive and inspiring that it's a very deliberate, very intentional, really long term skill that you're teaching people right from the day, they enter the workforce. And it feels like the complete mirror image of what I've seen happening in in some companies is, as you described there, that it's very kind of organic, let's throw a bit of leadership, a bit of Management at the wall and see whether it sticks. And I love your point about people being in the mindset of learning these skills, almost before they're ready to learn these skills so that when they get to the point where they are in that position where they need them, they're ready to go. Right, all the foundations have been built. Why isn't it like this in other sectors? Do you think why are some companies getting this wrong? Ben Williams 18:54 It's a great question. Saying it's a great question. It's just the perfect podcast pause now, isn't it? It'd be here that so... Zoe Amar 19:02 Take your time Ben. Ben Williams 19:03 It is a great question. And I've often sort of looked at it myself when now being in tech, I'm having to learn to lead and manage in a whole new way that I never experienced. And it's kind of... in a startup, it feels a bit making up on the fly. And one of our investors which came in quite early on, bought an executive coach with him and kind of his big caveat to his investment was you will have an executive coach and every two to three weeks, what fits your schedule to help you transition what effectively was me still transitioning from the military, although I'd been out about a year and a half I'd gone into running my own coaching business. I was me. I was on my own. You know, my leadership skill sets was still very much military focused and I hadn't applied into the civilian world. And then coming into a startup and having that opportunity to have that training enabled me to turn my leadership practices from what I've learned in the Corps, which is what we call the Marines through to now running my own business. And by far, it's been probably the most challenging thing I've ever done. Leading on frontlines, I think people misinterpret it as that that's got to be the most harrowing, most challenging thing you're going to face. And it is, of course, the environments challenging the consequences are challenging, the decision making is very efficient, because it's almost pre programmed. And that's a result of all that training and all that mentoring you've had all the way up until that point, and we call it exposure equals composure. So the more you can expose someone to a situation that causes adrenaline rush or flight, or fight or flight or freeze response, that physical mental reaction to something the more you can expose them to it and train them in that environment, the more composed they'll be, when essentially, something hits the fan. Now, what I've noticed, within the civilian world across multiple sectors, it is multi sector is you're not, I say you're, I say we. We're not very good at exposing people to the challenges they may face where they need to be composed as a good leader. So what you have is you have Joe Bloggs, for example, has just left university they've gone into a new role is they spend a year or two in the position, they performed really well. And so then promoted based off that performance. Now all of a sudden, Joe Bloggs, who's only had two years experience in the workplace, watching what goes on around them. And maybe did rugby or netball or something like that, at university is now having to learn leadership principles they've never established them put into their role. And then you're in. And then what happens is, and my opinion, and what I've seen is what you have then is an untrained person who's a specialist in their role, using their ability in their skill in the role as almost there ammunition to look effective in that place. And kind of looking away from the leadership management responsibility, because it has lots of tough things within it difficult conversations. The list is endless of how challenging the role can be. And especially now it's more complex as your OKRs, or KPIs. Your processes are now mixed with employee engagement, wellbeing, retention, it's multifaceted. So then, if they're not prepared for that they've not been exposed to those situations, they're never going to be composed when it comes to a challenging situation. And so my observation is why it misses is because there's very little going into how do you help sustain the improvement of that individuals, they lead up to that responsibility. And we'll come on to it, I won't maybe go into it just yet, but that's now where we're beginning to migrate as a business with our technology is, as a coach, I go in and provide a workshop which you get booked to do, let's say, you provide a workshop on leadership, great, people are going to sit there, they got half day off, we've got a couple of hours. That's great. I know some things down. Three days later, they're not going to remember who the speaker was, they'll probably remember one point. And then the company will say that some of this is online, so you can access it if you want to go and see it. So your blended learning experience of becoming a leader is almost this sheep dip course or sheep dip experience, and then a massive void between that holistic approach to resource online. And it's that void that is imperative to improve the skill set. So the Marines for example is, here's the information, mental, mental, mental mental experience, compose, expose, compose, expose, now you're on the job, off we go. That void in the middle is the bit that misses. And if we can get that void, right, with more effective and efficient blended learning, such as you know, what we're doing now using AI to build learning systems for people that you can interact with, related to the situation that you're facing, you can equip them more regularly and more efficiently. So when problems occur, they're more prepared. And I think that's, it's a challenge, and it's something that's missing. But equally, there's a huge opportunity to improve how we do this in the workplace right now with the you know, the revolution of AI and, and how people operate in the workplace. So I wouldn't see it as a big problem, actually. Now I see I see it as an opportunity that we can revolutionise how we upskill managers and leaders in the workplace. Paul Thomas 24:32 It is interesting, isn't it? Thinking back to the experience I had, I don't know how similar Zoe's experiences and the experiences that I had before entering the workplace. I mean, all those Saturday jobs, school, college, university unless those employers unless those experiences have an intentional leadership element to them. So for example, I worked in McDonald's, one of the things in McDonald's is they immediately start to teach you about leadership and team management and those sorts of things. That's something that I probably picked up there that I don't ever think about. But when it comes to school and university, you're following an academic path. You're not necessarily being taught in those. I was gonna call them soft skills, but Leadership isn't a soft skill, is it? You're not really taught intentionally around those things. You are, as you said, almost cherry picked from, oh, well, he's showing leadership qualities, she's showing leadership qualities. So she should be the captain of the netball team, she could be her head girl, he could be head boy, all of that stuff is sort of it's it's unintentional leadership training, so you don't have that grounding. Whereas what you're saying is, yeah, you might have been through the school system, and that might have been you coming out at the other end, but then you're, I think your word sheep dipped in nearly nine months, 10 months of, of training, specifically in how to deliver that, that nobody went during the workplace really has. So it's all that on the fly learning that we have. It's exactly that on the fly. And I think we have a saying in the Marines called no cuff's to tough which means there's nothing you can make up that's too hard to make up and just get on with it. Ben Williams 26:26 Very much like kind of put the tracks down in front of you know no cuff's to tough. But our sort of leadership principle that's drummed into you from the staff is actually a really simple mnemonic. It's JUBWICK. And it stands for judgement bearing willpower, integrity, courage and knowledge. Now, if you think about those, they're very, they're almost quite values based. And it's, it identifies that they throw the mnemonic together. So it says job with but the J and the U fits together. So that judgement piece is how do you judge a situation? You know, judging a situation is how are we going left blank? Are we going right flank? Or do we need to tactically withdraw? Judging the situation is I know that person over there likes to be shouted at I know that person over there with rather soft hand on the shoulder. Are you okay? Judging the room. Understanding what you're going into. And how are you going to react to that? And I love talking about bearing, you know, bearing what we attribute in the in the military is how do you show up? Is your chest out? As your chin up? Are you looking like you're in control? My sergeant major, he used to say to me, if you don't know what is going on, at least look like you know what's going on. And because that body language is that communication piece that this is all falling apart. But if everyone looks at me, they're going to look at me and think I've definitely got control of the situation. So how you walk into room how you operate in the field, that bearing peace, and then integrity is an obvious one. We, excuse me, if you don't mind me saying but it's, we call it your virginity in the Marines, you can only lose it once. And so it's, it's, it's there as part of our core DNA. And then you have courage, of course, courage, leaders have courage, and then knowledge. Are you an expert in what you're talking about? And if you're not, are you seeking to improve that knowledge? And if you think about that, you look at how complex the leadership learning experience can be for employees, where you have these models and these frameworks and these almost huge resources people have got to go through when they're already strapped for time where something as simple as where do you sit on job where, where do you need to improve? What are you good at judging the situation? How do you turn up if you turn up and start moaning that you're making layoffs, they may be happening, but you have to control yourself in that situation. So other people feel more inspired, as opposed to in fear. And that's all, when I get the opportunity, you know, maybe less so these days, because I'm more involved in our technology and what we're doing, but I still do speaking opportunities, I still do workshops, and yesterday I was with one of the top football teams talking about this, you know, we don't have leaders here. Well you do, you've just not, you've not begun to nurture them. And now you need to nurture and foster a leadership ethos within your club, because that will give you the 1% more than some of the others within the tier that you're in. So I think that's what it really comes back to for me is Don't overcomplicate it, you have to simplify it. And I always kind of said to myself, and my own journey is I want to create my leadership cocktail, where I'll watch one particular leader, and they'll do some great things. And I think I'm going to take a little bit of that and put it into my cocktail, but they did that thing. That's rubbish that's going in the bin. That person is really good at that and being very aware and self aware to be around the good leaders, those that get followed by others as well. And not maybe the sort of more negative and brutal ones which you can come across definitely within the Marines. And I think that's that part as well. Making your cocktail as you go along of what do you put in there to make you the leader that you are, there's not a set framework, there's not a set where you have to be it's quite subjective. And JUBWICK is a really great way of unearthing that within yourself. Paul Thomas 30:11 And it's interesting as well, just thinking, as you're talking the the amount of leaders that we have coming on to the podcast to talk about things like impostor syndrome. And, yeah, one thing that we've noticed since the pandemic is more leaders really accepting of the fact that they know nothing, and they surround themselves by experts who know stuff. They are the person, as you said, that walks in the room with their chest out their head held high, and is able to hold it together from a leadership point of view plus, not necessarily having all the answers. And I think that that sort of, as you were talking there, just thinking about the amount of people that talk about impostor syndrome. Yeah, I look like I'm walking into the room with attitude. But that's half the battle, isn't it? Ben Williams 30:51 Yeah, I, all the time, I say I'm the rifleman, that's what I learned that's what I spent 10 years doing is on the front line now running a tech company as CEO when, when we came into it, and people started doing we're doing Agile sprints, I thought that was somehow running in a particular way across the field, on one foot being agile around the house, an agile sprint, and having to learn all these things. And, you know, you feel like you can ask stupid questions, and the CTO will look at you and like, you don't know what JavaScript is, nope. Thought it was a type of coffee. And then, you know, you just learn as you go, but I think you have to be really accepting of imposter syndrome. I think you're, I think you're really right, as well as the last couple of years, people have sort of gone. Actually, I kind of don't know much. And I need to surround myself with people who know particular things. And that's fine. Like, that's not a problem. The worst thing is thinking the imposter is eating away at you. You can't speak up. And then you have to try and almost overcompensate for the areas you lacking. But half the fun is not knowing the thing to then go and learn. And I think it's more and more inspiring when leaders come through and start to be much more open and honest in that way. Because it's actually when we talk about well being and mental health as well, that's completely linked to it. You know, you can really hammer your own mental health and well being, because you're negatively talking to yourself internally, because you're saying you can't do this, you're not equipped to be here, they're going to find you out soon. That moment you go, they've probably already found me out. And now I'm just going to learn as I go, is where you accept that failing or that lack of understanding. And then you go and equip yourself. And I've been in situations when the enemy are trying to get you and you do think, Do I deserve to be here? How do I be here? How do I show up in this situation, if I get this bit wrong, you know, the consequences are dire. But you, you think through that situation, you you accept that you might not know what's around the corner, and there could be a consequence of that. But you'll do your job to the highest stability to ensure that you can try and get home now that's a very extreme example. I am. I'm fascinated by the Ben Francis journey from Gymshark, I think when he stepped down from CEOs to go around the business and learn about his business and learn about department owners, and sit down with Steve who became the CEO to learn what it's like to be a CEO. It was such a fine display of I have impostor syndrome, I don't understand what I'm doing a particular part of the business, I'm going to go and learn. I'm going to enjoy learning, I'm going to spend two to three years in my business building that skill set up. And then I'm going to take back over the reins like we should all be doing that. And I think the more people like that, who speak openly about, you see me we see them as a high performer, openly say I've got massive impostor syndrome, I've got no idea how I raise all this money and how we've got here and why we're doing this. And we're kind of just go in as we go. People really gravitate towards that. Because it's integral, it's transparent and honest. And I think that's where our true leaders shine through. Zoe Amar 34:03 And what you've described there with Gymshark and some of the other moments that you've faced, it's a great act of leadership in itself, isn't it? Because you're sending out that signal to people it's okay not to be the finished article. And actually, one of your purposes in this organisation is about learning and saying that you're not afraid to learn. Ben Williams 34:24 But it's also how you position it in yourself. So what and even within your organisation. So from outside looking in, through the barbed wire fences of the Royal Marines camp, there's probably the expectation that one of the values could be perfection to some degree. Now, that must be factual. If it if they're not perfect, someone gets injured or killed. Whereas actually what the value is, is excellent, because perfection is unachievable. You're never going to achieve perfection and those that do strive to achieve perfection aren't happy people because it's unobtainable you, you could argue there are elements in life where perfection is absolutely key. Otherwise, you'll see the dire consequences of it going wrong. But let's be really honest, perfection doesn't truly exist in most of our lives. But what we strive for in the Marines is excellence. So to think you're the finished article is untrue, you are not the finished article, you always have capacity to learn. If you think you're the finished article, you have arrogance and ego. Instead of humility that enables you to go Whew, I could always learn that 1% more. And my Corporal said that in trainings, you know, they said, if you're learning nought point, 1%, every single day, you're improving, even if it's sub zero, you should always be thinking like that. And it always stuck with me, because one of our other core values is humility. So you have got to have that humility to learn all the time. But understanding, there is never a finished article. There's always someone bigger and stronger and faster and more knowledgeable than you in the world. And it's a great opportunity to strive for that excellence instead of that perfection. And think, again, going back to the point about imposter, linking that then to excellence is what do you then set across your business that other people look up to, and it inspires them. So if you have a leader who goes, I don't really know much of this stuff, I'm learning as I go just like yourselves, and you can really feel its integrity and truth. What that then does is inspires people around the organisation to go well, if he or she can get there, so can I and I feel compelled to and I feel inspired, I feel safe to do so. As opposed to that person is the slickest operator I've ever seen. They never seem to drop anything. Well, they're going to be way better than me. So I might as well carry on doing what I'm doing. And I think that's the challenge people face. It's about opening up that idea of being, driving that excellence, constantly learning and inspiring people to be open about their own failings just create some of the best leaders you'll ever meet. Paul Thomas 36:57 I was just going to ask, because I know you've mentioned earlier on you're doing some work with football teams. And as you were talking there. Zoey always likes to know, yeah, Zoey encourages me to put more football into these podcasts. And it does come up time and time again. But there's so many parallels with what we're seeing. So I'm an Arsenal fan. What that was seeing with that team. But what we're seeing with that team at the moment, is that resetting of that expectation, and everything that I hear around the club is that striving for excellence rather than being the finished article. And that is coming from the top. But it's also being seen on the pitch with the players that are coming in and that sort of ethos. So can you tell us a bit more about the work that you're doing with... Obviously not giving away any confidential information but with with football clubs, and sports clubs? What what are they looking for from you? Is it that sense of leading from example? And through excellence? You said to get that extra 1%? What is it that they are looking for from from you? Ben Williams 38:13 Sure, and just say, so, we work during this kind of offseason and preseason stage with clubs as part of one of our services that we have in the business, so it's still we're very much across the here's our tech, this is what we do. This is how we use technology to improve learning within the workplace. And also then what's the hands on holistic approach. And so doing that with data allows you to target that specific problem better. So just so listeners are clear, and a coaching company or a tech company, it's a full suite of services. With Sport there's so many parallels to the military as you can imagine this high performance environment. It's very competitive. The military is very competitive. It's very mission focused. It's very objective focus. It wants to win. And they're machines, and they're facing a particular direction. What I've come to see in the last couple of years, and this started when we did some work with England football and when Gareth came in, was England, football was notoriously bad for its culture, where tables would be Manchester United. Other tables would be Chelsea. Other tables would be spares. And you can see it in their performances when you look back and it's quite well documented now over those years, especially that kind of Beckham era and as it's moving more towards Gareth southgate's tenure was these tables would sit apart they wouldn't talk it was all about the Premier League and kind of England was this box we need to take and hopefully we could win the World Cup. When Gareth came and joined us in the Marines for a while with the squad, it was all about learning about our values and how we create that united identity that enables us to face any situation. And very much, brother first self last. So you sacrifice yourself in front of anyone else within the team. And it was about wearing the badge of honour and a value attributed to each line. So when you put the shirt on, you're not putting your country's lines on, you're putting on a particular value set that you as a club set. And that's now steeped in its culture. In fact, I was with Swansea Football Club yesterday. And we're starting a project with them over the season to develop their culture across the entire football club. So from grassroots Academy all the way through to the pro team, catering, security, everything is all around what is that culture that's going to make us better than the rest because in sport, top six, maybe, but there's so much money available, that some clubs are just buying success. Now for the remainder, most are pretty much on the same level to a degree across the championship in the Premier League, that's for sure. And although money might still be a contributing factor, if we're really honest, those teams are usually quite level to a degree. And so then you have to look at especially in the championship, you then look at what's your edge then, because everyone's as fit as each other now. Everyone knows the tactics and can play in particular ways. We've got the most current and up to date technology to understand. So all the metrics and data are great, and our physicality great. But the 1% comes not just from your mindset, but the culture of the club, can you go in and give each other hard feedback? And you'd have the humility to take it and go, Yeah, you're right, I did do that wrong. And it's not an argument. It's not a fight. It's an opportunity to grow. Can the youngest player do that to the most senior player and vice versa? And can you in some way, talk to the manager and get some response back of what to do next with the team and how to improve the next game. And for us, that's what it's about. It's, it's about creating that culture in a high tempo organisation that has a turnover, that probably is way higher than any tech company right now, because of the draft systems. So how do you create that, and if you look at England, there's probably since I worked with them, five, maybe six players still kicking around who were there when I was there. A lot of new blood, a lot of new talent, some of the staff changed, but they've still got that culture, they still got those three values that underpin what England football's about. And, and much like what arsenal is doing and some of the other clubs and where I'm working now, is really trying to identify that actually, your culture is the thing that's going to push you forward to win now, against all the odds of the money, or the tactics and the skills and the data. And I think my final point on the football side is you just have to look at Luton, spending some time with players yesterday who have just come from there. One of them from the operations team, and another was one of the players said it's just an underdog spirit. And that underdog spirit was infectious across the whole club. They had three pay tiers. So you either knew you're on X tier, Y tier or Z tier, there was no you've got more than me, and I've got more than you and all that stuff. And it was a very humble club. And it's gone from the lowest leagues to now Premier League, and it stadiums is in a counsil state. So with the houses built into the stands, you know, it's just completely underdog but it was all down to their culture. And that's quite often for many clubs, the missing ingredient. Zoe Amar 43:49 It's incredible, isn't it? So it's really about culture as a competitive advantage. Ben Williams 43:56 Could it be USP in a in a game where everyone focuses on the data. Zoe Amar 44:01 Yeah, definitely. Yeah. It's so interesting were talking to charity CO, actually, in a few weeks where they put culture absolutely front and centre of, of what they've done in helping their organisation move forward. So yeah, absolutely. I think that's, that's such a key point. So I suppose that takes us on really nicely to Loopin. Can you tell us a bit more about what it is and how it works in practice? Ben Williams 44:28 Yeah, sure. So we now have two product offerings. We've started to bring a new product offering recently, which I'll come on to, but Loopin basically started as Genesis came from the coaching environment. So in between, leaving the Marines and starting Loopin, there was a bit of time there a couple of years, where I went into coaching with my business partner, and we did some great work. We worked back with England, some of the football academies, you know, high professional sport, we ran a huge multi 1000 person national engaged programme for one of the banks we were working with Meta. And we were learning some key things that hang on, you're losing loads of people here, people are disengaged because of managers. But we can't just say all managers are crap, and have that kind of throwaway comment. Because they've been promoted on metrics, we have to find a new way to help them be great leaders, as we've discussed on this podcast. So then, when the pandemic swung in the Genesis was, well, we're going to be sat on our hands for a while, and no one really knows what's going on, can we, during that time, look at a technical solution that could possibly fill the void that we speak of that could create something more for people that just go on a course or just read something online. And that's ultimately where Loopin began. And for us as Marines, it began with looking after one another. So sentiment, how do people feel? So fast forward a couple of years, I won't argue it's been a challenging couple of years. But we're now starting to see the fruits of our labour, in the sense of when we first started, people were saying to us, you're going to ask employees how they feel, and share it with the team? And we were like, Yeah, because it links to high performance. And it was a bumpy, hard start. But we got there. And essentially, what Loopin does it ask people how they are, how they're feeling about their day or their week, takes that dat, in some cases, it anonymizes it if you want to be on private mode, or if it's open, if you want to be seen, puts it within a kind of social space within your team through Slack channels, and through our platform. And you can see how people are and we kind of prompt and promote people to actually check in on one another and like comments and lends support and build that connection between people in the workplace how they're feeling. Now, it's kind of evolved over the last six to nine months as AI started coming in. Because then we thought, well, can we take that data and can we apply that data to AI models that are trained on particular resources, such as leadership development, or personal development, wellbeing, and then kickback a personalised response to that individual? So maybe they're an employee who's just having a bit of a 'meh' time at the moment, and you can create a personalised resource for that individual through AI to help support them? What about the manager who's overwhelmed and has, you know, all these plates to spin and now they've got insights to look at about how their employees are feeling. Thanks for adding something more to my plate. Well, we condense that information. And we pass the value to the manager in the sense of, hey, we know you're busy. Here's three things you might want to consider this week, here's who you need to talk to, here's who you can leave alone. And this is what to say. And so as the idea is creating that journey, where that's fine people, I've had people challenging me going, Oh, now we're getting managers to get robots to just do it for them. No, no, what you're doing is you're making their time more efficient, pointing out where they need to go and put action where they can mitigate risks, and where they can just carry on like normal. And that's really helpful. So that's essentially what Loopin evolved into. And then most recently, in the last sort of six to seven weeks, we launched our new product that fits under the Loopin and brand. And we call it Loopin knowledge at the moment, but it's moving quite quickly. And we're soon to change the brand name. But that side, what we've essentially began to do is train these models, but for coaches for training companies, for individuals. So what we essentially did was we took my book commander mindset, nice plug, available all retailers, we trained the digital version of the book into an AI model, took out a chat interface, and branded it up all in the commando mindset branding. And now you can go in almost like a commando mindset GPT. It's, it's the only thing it's trained on is my book. We've trained in my persona, and how I speak and my tone. And now you can go in and ask the book questions and get answers based off what you're experiencing. So we played with that. And we thought, well, that's quite a smart thing to do. I wonder if other people would need or want something like that. So we took it to the coaching community and said, Anyone interested in putting your content into a digital experience? And of course, they're limited to eight hours a day they they're within those voids that I spoke about earlier? Can they make first off their content, a passive income. Second off, can they make their content more accessible and more personalised? So immediately, we started building for the training and coaching community, and then it's kind of widened up which we maybe anticipated maybe didn't at this speed. But sales handbooks playbooks. I'm on a call. I'm a young employee. I've just got this job. I've got this objection. I don't want to ask my manager. I don't want to delay the process. Can I ask the handbook so you train the handbook into the AI. And so it just broadens and widens our ability to help people learn more effectively and efficiently in the workplace. And so you go back to what we were talking about around the voids, you have some training, whether that sales, training, leadership training, wellbeing training, and then there's a void, and there's some resources you can go and visit, if you're interested or have time, well, what we've done is essentially plugging into that void and experience that just doesn't exist at the moment where you can interact with the content that you've been trained on or taught, that's going to make you more effective and more efficient. So it's really starting to rock it for us. And, you know, we're humbled by that. But we know we use an AI for good to be able to help improve that learning and training environment across multiple sectors and industries, to speed up the process, and I think that's what, you know, definitely a CFO is looking for at the moment, and the CEO and the COO's. They want that efficiency within the business. So that's ultimately where Loopin's migrated towards. Zoe Amar 51:08 That's really exciting. And we'll put some links to all things Loopin in the shownotes for anyone who'd like to find out more. Ben, this has been fascinating. Thank you, before we wrap up just briefly, for any leaders out there who might be thinking, Gosh, my staff in here are really difficult time over the last few years, and I'm struggling to motivate them. What's the one thing you would recommend they do? Ben Williams 51:32 That's another great question. I was speaking to someone about this the other day, actually, around motivation. And actually, discipline eats motivation for breakfast, anyone can be motivated for 10 minutes. What most companies are experiencing at the moment is that end of the honeymoon period, it's that classic, I'm on a health kick. So I'm going to set my alarm for five tomorrow and go to the gym, and then the alarm goes off and so... nah... or you might do it for a couple of weeks. And then you hit that phase, I think where we're at from what we're seeing is, there was this excitement, I believe, when we came out of COVID, that we're back, we're in the office, we've got this hybrid blend, amazing, like I kind of can work from home. But I can also go in the office, this feels great. And we went through this honeymoon period, where all felt quite rosy. And then there was this lingering crash inbound and the recession heading our way. And then we need people back in the workplace, this many days of the week, and then the layoffs began happening, there was an inevitable crash that was going to come from an experience that none of us have had, or the generation you haven't had since World War II. And it's gonna come with its consequences, not just during the moment, but after the moment. And I believe what many leaders are probably now feeling the real pain of is everything tightening, you know, financially, personnel wise resources. And people just weighing in, we haven't recovered from COVID. And if I look back on my military experience, when does the PTSD kick in? When does the post traumatic stress happen? When does the anxiety come from it doesn't come from the battlefield, it doesn't happen there. That's the trigger. It's six months is 12 months. It's three years later, where people start to have flashbacks. And what we're what I believe we're going through is we've been through our trauma. We've all been through our battlefield, we've had that exciting moment of getting home away from the battlefield, which is this release out of COVID. And now it's back to normality, where what happened on the battlefield for all of us is catching up. So I almost don't have an answer, because what I believe is happening is something unprecedented. People don't know how to navigate this motivation, because the financial incentives aren't what they were. There's, there's just awful things happen around the world. And I don't, so not to end on a low because I'll definitely bring this up. Because you've asked me how to motivate people. I said, you can't, and everything's on its ass. It's not that at all. But what we now need to look for is new, more dynamic and subjective ways to motivate people. It can't be abroad, let's have a wellbeing scheme. Let's do this. Let's do that. Managers and leaders are going to have to get into their teams, and understand what is kicking people, what's hurting people and what's motivating people. Because all of us have got our own games now. And when you don't get in and unearth that you'll just create this selfish, siloed individualistic group of people within their company that will go into survival self defence mode, where what you want is to be that leader who's in that What are you suffering with? What where can I help you? Where can I take something off your plate? And that starts at the manager who runs three people teams through to the CEO who can walk the floor and go and visit people. It's so motivating when someone who leaves your team knows your dog's name, or understands that your children are about to start X school. And that's the bit that will motivate people. Now when they're almost on their asses to come in and go, I heard you're training for that marathon. That's awesome. Can we support you? Can we add a donation to whatever you're doing it for? That's brilliant, how's your dog Loopin, getting on? It's more of an owl. But those things that help you understand your people better is more motivating than any scheme you can put in place. And you know, what it comes down to is just showing that you care. That's how you motivate people in the workplace at the moment, don't ever over engineer it, or make it hard, make it complex. Go and care when you care, people will stay. Paul Thomas 55:48 That's a brilliant answer, Ben, thank you. I mean, it's such a thoughtful response, it has actually made me completely rethink the question. Because what you've maybe considered there is actually the motivation is not something that the leader imposes on the team. It's actually ultimately about your own motivation as leaders, my motivation has got to be I got to understand my team and help them feel seen whatever stage they're at, in this post pandemic processing modes we're all in right now. So that's a great note to end on. I actually think it is a really positive one. So thank you. Ben Williams 56:20 You're more than welcome. Thank you very much for having me on. Paul Thomas 56:23 Thank you so much to Ben and his team at Loopin to making the time to come on to the podcast. You can find more information about Loopin via the links will share in the show notes or let'sloopin.com That's let'sloopin.com. Zoe Amar 56:37 We'll be back in a fortnight with a brand new episode, this time speaking to Alice Kershaw, of the Wildlife Trust so stay tuned for that one. Paul Thomas 56:46 You can support the podcast by leaving us a five star review. Please. Wherever you listen to us whether that's Apple podcasts Spotify or Google they're doing podcasts as well you know these days but yeah, little known pretender in the podcast market. But thank you for listening. Zoe Amar 57:02 Thank you for listening. See you in a couple of weeks. Transcribed by https://otter.ai