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Samuel Kasumu: We're gonna need to utilise everybody's skills
and talents, which it also includes people who may feel
like outsiders for various reasons, we cannot afford to
have certain groups not been able to flourish.
Paul Thomas: Welcome to a brand new episode of Starts at the
Top, our podcasts about leadership, digital and change.
I'm Paul Thomas.
Zoe Amar: And I'm Zoe Amar. Our podcast is all about leadership
and brings you interviews with leaders who we believe are
driving a positive change in the world.
Paul Thomas: Change comes in many forms. And we're equally
interested in speaking to leaders who are making
incremental change and shifting the dial within their own
organisations, as we are about talking, and speaking about huge
systemic changes that impact the world of work. Our driving force
of this podcast is to share those stories across sectors and
industries so that we can all learn from each other. And in
today's episode, we're going to share our discussion with Samuel
Kasumu, one time adviser to Boris Johnson, and author of The
Power of The Outsider a Journey of Discovery. Zoe what did you
make of Samuels book,
Zoe Amar: I thought it was fascinating, really, really
interesting. I think it's a great read for any leaders who
are thinking about marginalised groups in their organisations
and how they can make sure that they really do truly create a
culture of belonging. And I think it's just a really helpful
route to understand what an outsider is, because some of
your talks about how outsiders come in all kinds of shapes and
sizes, there are different kinds of being an outsider. And he
describes that at the start of the book, he talks about
different ways in which you can help more people, all these
different types of people who may feel like they're outsiders
feel included. So I thought it was really illuminating. And
really, really interesting.
Paul Thomas: This is one of those episodes where I think my
role is one of learning. Having said that, I thought this was a
fascinating read, and one that shone a light on what it means
to come from a relatively privileged working class
background, but still find yourself in a situation within
government where you are seen as a total outsider, which
eventually led to Samuel leaving. And I thought his
honesty and insight was inspiring. I mean, I really
liked the book, and I would recommend it, but I thought it
came to life a bit more for me through our conversation, if
that makes sense.
Zoe Amar: Yeah I agree. I think it was so interesting to hear
the story behind the book, as it were, and to explore how he had
navigated his own role as an outsider and how he came to see
that as a real strength because it's helped him be innovative
and also stay true to his values. So I really enjoyed
talking to him. And I think it's a really fascinating read that
anyone who's interested in EDI, which I imagine is hopefully
most people should definitely pick that up and have a look at
Paul Thomas: Yeah, and as we were just discussing, before we
it.
recorded I did reflect that, actually, I think the the idea
of existing at the edges of an organisation or existing at the
edges of conversation, sometimes in the role of observer is often
a very, very strong position to put yourself into so you can see
where your skills and where you can add value rather than being
sort of entrenched in a business centre in an organisational
sense and trenched in a in a single team within an
organisation. And they say, you know, he said Innovation often
comes from the edges. So I think it's interesting to take that
view. And the book really explores that well.
Zoe Amar: Paul, if you don't mind, I'm just going to
challenge that slightly just because I think that I think
there is value in being an outsider and I don't think I
could have done the things that I've done in my career, for
example, without being an outsider and having the benefit
of quite often looking at things from a very different
perspective just because of you who I am. And my demographic. I
also think there is and we explore this in the interview
itself, I do think there can be a very human cost to being an
outsider. And I know that you and I have had talked about that
before. So from my own experience, going to many
meetings over the years, where I am one of very few people of
colour in the room, and sometimes one of very few women
in the room. And I do think that's a big challenge in the
world of digital. So I think that, I think what really came
through in the book and also the fascinating conversation with
Samuel is that, yes, there is an element of, of privilege, in
some ways to being an outsider, because you get that unique
perspective and things and that strength that comes from looking
at things differently. There's also a lot to navigate. And
there are, there are barriers as well, there are barriers, and it
does take some strength of character, I think and a support
network. And Samuel talks a lot about the value of sponsorship
and mentorship and the responsibility that
organisations have to be aware of how they open those doors, to
make sure that people have a fair crack at things everyone
has a chance to contribute.
Paul Thomas: I was specifically thinking about innovation, but
also you know, when you mentioned EDI, I think it's
really important that businesses or any organisation puts a real
focus on purposely making EDI happen as well not just sort of
reflecting or, you know, where are we and where should we be?
How can we make things better, but actively going and pursuing
the agenda and making it a core part of absolutely everything
they do, you know, give people a seat at the table. Don't expect
them to sit at the edges of that table and chip in from the
outside, but give them a seat at the table as well. So yeah, I
completely agree.
Zoe Amar: And maybe that's something we need to explore in
our next season. Because I think there's some really interesting
things I'm hearing at the moment and not just in charities about
how because of the pressures of cost of living, or you have the
challenges that organisations are facing a moment that perhaps
EDI isn't quite the priority that it was a year ago. So I
think it'd be quite interesting to delve into that. What's
changed? How are things progressing? Who's still really
committed to this and what can we learn from them?
Paul Thomas: Yeah, we certainly don't want to rest on our
laurels on that point.
Zoe Amar: And if anyone knows anyone out there who they think
would be a great guest or guests on those topics, please just let
us know you can contact us on the socials or email us.
Paul Thomas: So now for our interview with Samuel Kasumu.
Zoe Amar: We are very excited to welcome Samuel Kasumu to our
podcast today, Samuel is an award winning social
entrepreneur, commentator and strategist. He is the founder of
inclusive boards and executive headhunting firm, and has been
involved in setting up and growing a number of initiatives
to support the progress of Britain's black and minority
ethnic population. He has won numerous awards for his work,
including Barclays Business Enterprise Award, the CBI's
Young Star of Enterprise Award and entrepreneur champion of the
year, he is the author of The Power of the Outsider, his first
book, and it's about his experiences of being most senior
black advisor in Boris Johnson's government, along with the value
that outsiders bring, and how difference can be a huge force
for good, Samuel, welcome to Starts at the Top. We're so
happy to have you here.
Samuel Kasumu: Thank you for having me Zoe and Paul.
Zoe Amar: Congratulations on the book, we found it a really
interesting read. And there's a lot to dig into here, which is
very relevant to a lot of the themes we've explored on this
podcast before. Can we kick off with you describing what an
outsider is? And what the different types of outsider are?
Samuel Kasumu: Yeah, sure. So when I set out to write the
book, I tried to make sure that it didn't necessarily have a
conclusive definition of what it meant to be an outsider, because
I kind of felt like it meant different things to different
people in different places for different reasons. And so by the
time I'd finished the book, so starting with the end, I
suppose, I realised that the one thing that every outsider has in
common is that they're set apart. And the one, the one
thing that you could add to a definition that would allow
people to, I guess be rooted in their outsiderness is that
they're set apart for a reason. And so that's the definition I
use. An outsider is somebody that is different from a group
or an environment, but they're different, for a reason, they're
not just different, they're different, because there's a
value that they bring. And in terms of the types of outsiders,
there are many different types of outsiders, you can feel like
a demographic outsider or a certain outsider, because of
something that is an objective fact, it could be the colour of
your skin, it could be your gender, it could be the football
team you support, it could be where you went to school, the
area you grew up in. So a social demographic outsider, is
somebody who is an outsider, because of something that you
know, is a fact, you could also be an outsider, because although
you might look the same or sound the same or be the same
objectively, as everybody else, for some reason, you feel a bit
different. So you can be a psychological outsider. And that
is an outsider that you might find in a family, or contexts
where you are, you know, you have the same mother and father,
as all your siblings, but you're the quiet one, or the introvert,
or there might be something that just makes you feel like
although you might be like everybody else in your
environment, you are different. It could be because you've
suffered trauma that nobody else knows you've had, it could be
because you have some form of dysphoria. So, you know,
everybody in the room might be a particular gender and you might
feel like actually, you know, for various reasons, that is not
the gender that you feel most comfortable, within. So that's
the second type of outsider. And then the third type of outsider
and this is the one where perhaps you have the most agency
is the tactical outsider. So, this is an outsider that sets
themselves apart from a group in order to obtain some form of
advantage or because there is a feeling of disconnect or
unsatisfaction with a particular group or discourse. So, so an
example of that is my former boss, Boris Johnson, you know,
he went to Eton, went to Oxford, was in the Bullingdon Club, a
high flying journalist, in many respects an insider. But in
order for him to win his view, obtain the highest office, he
chose to position himself as an outsider in many ways, and I
guess most famously in choosing to lead a campaign to leave the
European Union. Another example is Nigel Farage, is of course
somebody who people view as an anti establishment figure. But
again, someone who is from a relatively poor background, very
well connected in high society you know, he's mates with Rupert
Murdoch, etc, etc. But he has positioned himself tactically in
order for him to push a particular agenda there. I guess
we can assume his passionate about. And then of course there
are left wing examples outsiders, I'm just giving you
some really right wing ones but anyway, Oh, yeah. So there are
three main types or categories of outsiders so it can be a
demographic outsider, psychological outsider, tactical
outside, the interesting thing is, you can be all of those
things at once. One thing that they all bring together is they
all have a value that they bring. And then the other thing,
which I guess we might explore later is, there was always the
potential of a feeling of isolation, even if you tactical
outside. So it's not saying, well, you know, just because
this type has so much agency, they're less likely to feel like
they're alone or lonely or isolated, that religion is very
natural, very common.
Zoe Amar: And that's something which I think you explore so
courageously in the book, and something, that really resonates
with me as a woman of colour, because I think I've spent a lot
of my life feeling as an outsider. So I was wondering if
we could compare notes for a minute, and perhaps if you could
tell us a bit about when you felt like an outsider and how
that feels.
Samuel Kasumu: The book kind of centres around my experience in
Downing Street. So when I entered Number 10, I was quite
different from the rest of my colleagues in the sense that I
wasn't part of Boris Johnson's City Hall gang. So when he was
mayor of London, I didn't work with him then, I never played a
leading role in leaving the European Union. So I wasn't part
of the vote leave set. So Dominic Cummings, Lee Cain, etc.
So I didn't come in with them. And I wasn't a legacy higher. So
a legacy higher in the sense that, I didn't work full time in
Downing street for Theresa May, or David Cameron. So they were
essentially the three sets of people that entered Downing
Street with Boris Johnson in 2019. I mean, I knew a few
people there, of course, but I wasn't part of any of those
groups. So I was an outsider, you know, by default, when I
walked in, one of the very few people that came in, because,
well because I could actually, you know, bring a specific type
of expertise. In addition to that, you know, yes, I'm a black
man. And I was the only black advisor in Downing street for a
long time, also, from a working class background, didn't go to
Oxford and Cambridge. So I was very different. And when I first
arrived, it wasn't something that I had much time to think
about. And actually, for most of my time, in Downing street,
there wasn't much time for me to think about it. But it's only
after I left, that I realised that perhaps I needed to
probably explore what that experience was like, and why my
outsiderness may have impacted how I was functioning in that
environment.
Zoe Amar: And you describe that experience of being an outsider
and ultimately the impact that had on you, I think, very
movingly, and very openly as well in chapter 15 of the book.
And what really struck me about that chapter in which you
describe why you left Downing Street is that the human cost of
being an outsider. So I was wondering if you could tell us a
bit more about what you describe in that chapter. Why you left?
And the toll that being an outsider can sometimes take?
Samuel Kasumu: Yeah, it's, you know, throughout the book, I
mean, towards the latter part, but throughout the book, I tried
to start with the values first perspective. So we're actually,
let's first understand that being an outsider is not a bad
thing, right. But at the same time, when you're trying to
function in certain environments, it can have a
significant impact on your ability to flourish if you feel
isolated. Or if you feel like you can't be your full self. Or
if you feel like you're not quite sure how to navigate
certain spaces. And so when I was in Downing Street, there
were times when, of course, I felt like, well, I know why I'm
here. Technically, I represent the majority, because most
people don't go to Oxford or Cambridge. Most people were not
from the upper echelons, or have family members from top echelons
in society. So there were times I try to remind myself that
actually, although I might be an outsider in here. Technically, I
represent more people than most of the folks in a similar
position to myself. But that didn't mean that it didn't take
its toll on me. And some of the challenges I had was around not
necessarily being able to communicate, how I was feeling
or the things I was going through. Because there was
always this feeling that perhaps I needed to make sure that I
could demonstrate I could hold my own or I didn't want to push
certain buttons that would result in me maybe being even
further isolated, is a political environment, loads of really
powerful people. And the last thing you want is not to be able
to progress or or push on in your work because some people
feel like, well, he's a bit too different, or he's not really on
our side, you know. So those are some of the things I was having
to navigate. In addition to that everybody in life has their own
personal challenges in their own environments, whether it's at
home or wherever. And so trying to balance the issues at work
with you know, the life of life was probably the reason that led
to me eventually departing.
Zoe Amar: Yeah, absolutely. And we thought you just did scrappy
told the story of that in such a moving basic human way, in that
final part of the book, and as you say, I think those two
realities can coexist, right? I mean, if I could press a button
and not be an outsider, I wouldn't do that. Because I
think it's been really formative, what I've done, I
think it's been very formative for what you've done, and you've
achieved as well. But equally, there are moments when you do
feel isolated, right? I mean, those two things do coexist in
the reality of a lot of people from different backgrounds in
the workplace. And I think what you described so well, at the
end of the book, it's that sense of, you're kind of doing two
jobs, aren't you? You're doing in your case, and particularly,
you're doing this incredibly challenging job during a time of
national crisis, it meets the global upheaval of the pandemic,
and you're also trying to forge this blueprint for the future,
aren't you as well about what the new workplace could look
like, and the place of people who've got different backgrounds
within it.
Samuel Kasumu: Yeah, the challenge is particularly in the
western, we can talk about in the UK, we've never really been,
in this moment before, where you have so many different types of
people, and different spaces that were the preserve of
elites. And so, you know, more people going to university, we
can have a debate around how we feel about that. But
nonetheless, there's people who are going to education and
apparent for the first time in their family, there are people
who... we've never looked this way, in terms of our ethnic
makeup. And so, you know, there were places that were always
full of like the Foreign Office, which when I met, you know, in
the book I speak to Samir Puri was a really high flying
individual and in the Foreign Office, and there were never,
there was never people like him, you know, for 30 odd years ago.
And even now, it's still a very tough place to get into if
you're, if you're not from a particular type of background.
But we're making progress. And as a result of that progress, we
don't necessarily all know how to function. And that is not
just on people who are part of elite groups, but also people
who are entering for the first time so everybody is trying to
figure it out. We're not necessarily afforded the space,
to be honest about that, you know, and so what I tried, my
best to do in the book is give people that space and say, Look,
actually, these are really important questions. We don't
all know the answers. And unfortunately, we all have to
sound like we know the answers, because that's what society
demands. But actually, maybe we just need to try and understand
people a bit better. In fact, maybe we just need to try to
understand ourselves a bit better first. Because if we can
understand ourselves, then maybe we might be a bit more gracious
towards folks who will inevitably get it wrong. The
reason why I call, you know, this subheading is a journey of
discovery is perfect. We're all on this journey of discovery.
But because of things like social media and other pressures
is just very difficult for us to have a sense of humanity in this
day and age. And, and I suppose that's probably part of my
broader mission. Now, I'm going to try and find a way to help
people with opposing views to just at least try and understand
themselves a bit, a bit better.
Paul Thomas: Do you think it's possible to do that within
Westminster? Do you think that's the, possibly the sort of the
worst environment? We interviewed Ian Dunt, about his
book, how Westminster works and why it doesn't. And he described
this, this role of the sort of specialist advisors SPADs within
Westminster as being these people that are absolutely
necessary to the diversity of thinking within government,
because government ministers MPs are of a specific type that's
really hard to, to infiltrate, I guess. But especially its
advisors are there, but I mean, I just, you know, go around the
houses of it, I come from my recent work background is
working for professional services. And I've always been
quite taken by the fact that in a partner led organisation, the
partners assume this role of responsibility, almost like the
MPs of Westminster, where they, they sort of take the roles, the
sort of leadership roles in places like HR and marketing and
functions like that, despite the fact that they don't have any
specialist knowledge at all. So into that environment, if you're
putting yourself in that environment as the specialist
advisor, do you think is that role doomed to failure? Is it
short term go in and make an impact? Or can you really affect
real change?
Samuel Kasumu: It's good question Paul, I always joke,
you know, I lost to Dominic Cummings, Lee cane and a bunch
of other folks. But you know, the turnover is, is relatively
high because it's so high pressured and everybody who is a
Special Advisor, particularly Downing street has a lot of
power. And so you're having to navigate each other more than
you're trying to navigate ministers, etc, to be honest,
particularly in the environment I was in, which wasn't the most
functional. I think you can be successful as a special advisor.
But a lot of things need to align. You know, I think most
people, whether they like me or not, or they agreed with me
leaving or not would attest to the fact like, you know, I was
pretty good at my job. But that was mainly because I've had
experiences that other people didn't, I was just very, just
very used to doing stuff and not waiting around for your
conversations. And that's why I ended up leaving on the vaccine
deployment, because some of the others would have probably just
been more interested in having policy conversations, whereas I
was quite keen to drive the campaign forward, we would drive
it like a campaign, make sure we understood different groups and
the variables across the country that would have led to being
successful, then you can be successful at the job, you need
to have a good Prime Minister, you need to have good
Secretaries of State who understand their role. You need
to have decent people who have the right skills in place. But I
guess, separate to that, can Westminister function well? I
think the answer is yes. But again, it goes back to having
good people, you know, politicians often only focus
their minds on the next election, and even a half decent
Prime Minister will try and get really tough things done in year
one and year two, so that they can then, you know, refocus on
the next election. And so, you know, most politicians are so
focused on the five year cycle in this country, that it's very
difficult for us to have people who have a long term view and
people who are trying to make the case for doing the right
thing. And I think that's what we need more, we need more
people who are able to say, well, actually, you know, is
this really gonna be the best thing to do for the country, you
know, looking 10, 20 years from now, and we don't have people
maybe... I don't wanna say smarter than I thought maybe
talented enough in Westminster to do that. Well, right now, to
be honest.
Paul Thomas: I've got an ongoing fascination between the
differences between specialists and generalists and read quite a
lot around that subject as listeners to the podcast will
probably be bored with me talking about David Epstein's
range. But there's this sort of this constant sort of in the
writing around the subject, it's always about specialists versus
generalists are generalists versus specialists, you know,
the two things, you're either one or the other. And I see
myself more as a generalist with specialist leanings, that have
areas I specialise more in than perhaps others. But you know,
it's a general role that I could perform. Do you think those two
can coexist? Is one sort of outweighed or overruled within
Westminster? Do you think is? Do we need to sort of talk more
about generalism and specialism combining and working together?
And is that easy to achieve? Do you think?
Samuel Kasumu: Yeah, that's a good question. I don't think
there are many, particularly at the very highest levels, I don't
think there are many specialists to be honest in Westminster. I
mean, it's very difficult for you to in the current, current
way Westminster functions for you to get very far being a
specialist, because a lot of generalists are able to utilise
certain skills to get very far. So for example, I mean, I
probably call myself a generalist, but the one thing I
bring is leadership. And so, you know, when I'm in Downing
Street, you know, after a day or two, trying to stop getting lost
in the building, you know, my focus was on like, how do I
lead? How do I make sure I'm in charge here? This is, this is
how I'm most comfortable. And so that's pretty much how I did it
with a two year period. But special advisors aside, big
issue in Westminster is for you to become a member of
parliament, usually, you know, I would say, for most, most
parties, everything, you know, the Conservative Party you need
to go knock on those doors. You need to go and make calls at the
campaign headquarters you need to go to around to some dinners,
and you need to get some people knowing you. And should that
really be enough? I don't think so. And so we end up with a
bunch of mediocre generalists not necessarily generalists who
also bring in leadership capacity or corporate experience
or experience in education, you just end up with folks who've
been knocking on doors for the last three or four years is who
you get, and with the labour movement is slightly different.
Because usually, you need to be a member of a union, or more
often than not, but it's still kind of at the same. So you're a
member of the Union, you know, do the members of the union in
that particular seat know who you are, you know, are the
unions backing you? But what does that have to do with, you
know, whether or not you bring specialists or even, you know,
high level generalist skills to the table. So, Westminster
doesn't work. Would you expect because Westminster is full of
insiders who, you know, might have some slight differences,
but they've all taken the same path in. And when you have
someone that's outsider who ends up in Westminster as a member of
parliament, you know, usually it's kind of like, some kind of
weird accident. And sometimes people who vote regretted
because they're like this person is far too disruptive. How did
they get here? You know, how do they slip through vetting? Who
is outspoken, etc. So yeah, it does need to change. But I think
the quality of the people that we want to get into Westminster
needs to change. Just one more thing on that, you know, a lot
of good people don't want to go into politics, because they see
how politicians are treated, and how they treat each other. And
so that's probably another thing that needs to be explored or
confronted, you know, most of us been attacked on social media,
but also, you know, put the blissful class finding ways to
attack each other because they're so focused on on trying
to win.
Paul Thomas: The impossible job.
Zoe Amar: A really difficult job. But something that takes us
on really nicely to some of the other themes in the book about
the advantages of being an outsider and the many strengths
that outsiders bring. Can you tell us a bit more about that,
because I find your exploration of those issues really
fascinating.
Samuel Kasumu: Yes. So you know, going to meet the different
outsiders that helped me to navigate this journey, I made
sure I went to visit them with a very open mind. And actually,
some of the things that you see around the values that bring was
purely based on reflections from listening to them speak and
listening to their stories and their journey. So you know,
outsiders can stand out, which is a very important thing when
you're trying to either send a signal, or you're trying to
inspire others. And of course, the outsiders can inspire people
from different backgrounds to know that certain things are
possible. They can challenge orthodoxy. You know, sometimes
when things are not going the way that they need to go, bring
in an outsider, some fresh perspective, with some fresh
energy can often get things moving, like I don't know, if
you have a sports team that is not performing very well. You
can either change the whole team, which might be very
expensive, you know, not everyone has deep pockets like
Chelsea Football Club, or you can bring in a new manager who
might bring some fresh energy and drive some more value out of
the existing team. They can heal divisions. And this is such an
important thing for me, I think. But we society today there's so
many different divisions based on cultural issues, or whatever,
what have you. But the best way, in my opinion, to build bridges
is to try and bring people who are outsiders who can actually
have maybe not as much skin in the game or a bit of credibility
on both sides to, to build bridges. So there's so many
things that outsiders can bring, if they are allowed, or they can
grasp the opportunity to flourish.
Zoe Amar: Yeah, that totally resonates with me as a woman of
colour. I mean, I wouldn't change it for anything, I think
it I think in the right way, in the right environment, it can
actually be really liberating to be an outsider can't it?
Samuel Kasumu: Yeah, and it's about two things. One is
recognising the value you bring, I think should always start with
you. And that's, I think that's my challenge to a lot of people
in society. Now it's okay, fine we can talk about individuals
and institutions that need to do better, we can all agree they
need to do better. But first for you to fulfil your full
potential. And for you to feel a sense of a psychological safety,
you need to also make sure that you recognise your value your
first it's got to start with you. And that's the challenge,
you know. And so yeah, I think that's important. And then once
you've done that, that gives you the confidence to be able to
really flourish and challenge folks in the right way, but from
a very strong starting point. And for institutions as
individuals and as a country. The challenge is, we are
struggling with things like productivity. We have an ageing
population, we have really big challenges that we are not
grappling with very well as a country today. And yes, we're in
the middle of a cost of living crisis. And yes, we've had a
pandemic, but those things have only highlighted the challenges
that were already there. And for us to really progress as a
country, we're going to need to utilise everybody's skills and
gifts, talents, which it also includes people who may feel
like outsiders for various reasons, we cannot afford to
have certain groups not being able to flourish. And so
selfishly, we need to make sure everybody can go as far as they
can.
Zoe Amar: Yeah, 100% support that. And I love your point
there about people beginning that journey by realising their
strengths and their values, what they bring to the table. It
feels like there's something supporting that as well around
self acceptance for anyone who is right at the beginning of
their journey with that process. How did you do it Samuel, what
would you advise others who are in that situation?
Samuel Kasumu: It's a really good question. I suppose. I
mean, before I was in Downing Street, I've always felt like I
was an outsider, because I've always just decided to do things
that make me feel comfortable. So, you know, going to a
particularly University was because well I just felt like
doing it, my dad thought I was crazy. But you know, we are who
we are, or choosing when I left university not to go and get a
job and set up an enterprise these things that I've always
felt quite natural to me. So I suppose the first thing I would
say is, if possible, try and find things that are very
natural for you to do. And see if you can be afforded the
opportunity to do that. And that might not be through work, it
might be through volunteering, or what have you. Because the
more you're able to utilise your skills in ways that add value to
your community or society, then the more you're going to get the
confidence to grow in that area. So that's first thing I would
say. Secondly, I would say is everybody who has progressed in
life has had help, you know, whether you are somebody who's
born into privilege, and you know, the help is on your
doorstep, or upstairs or whatever, or more, or an uncle
or an aunt, or whatever, you know, you're suddenly from an
underrepresented background, who's had a mentor or a teacher
who believed in you, or you access an internship somehow, or
what have you. Everybody has folks who help them. And so if
you want to be in a position where you can get that help,
then you need to also be someone willing to give that help, too.
And so I'd say that, make sure you're giving back, make sure
you're mentoring yourself. So that, you know, you understand
the dynamics of how to get the help you need. Personal Branding
is, of course, very, very important. So what is what you
bring to the table? And you know, if I was to go on your
social media, what story am I gonna get from viewing your
online presence? So how can I see that you are the leader in
your space. And I suppose the final thing I would say, is
just, you know, life's short. So try your best to embrace every
moment, you know, this, this is a wonderful country, the United
Kingdom, but we have, people don't feel very happy right now.
And I think one of the reasons why they don't feel very happy,
is because they didn't feel like they can be themselves or they
can flourish. And so, you know, try and find opportunities for
you to feel like you've been able to be yourself. And if it's
too big ask in your current place of work, then start in
environments that might not be work, you know, go wherever you
can to build that confidence, and take it step by step.
Zoe Amar: So if we bring those themes back to the workplace and
the role of leaders and employers, because I think this
takes us very nicely on to one of the other things you describe
in the book about the value that facilitators can bring, you
know, brokering those relationships between different
groups in the workplace, or whatever environment it might
be, what role should facilitators play? What should
leaders be doing out there to bring different groups together?
Samuel Kasumu: Yeah, we hear it all the time. But it's true
leadership matters, you know, you start, you have to set the
tone, you have to be the standard bearer, you have to be
the one that is being very explicit about what is important
in an environment. And so, you know, if you're in an
environment, and the leader doesn't really say very
explicitly that, well, this is a place that's going to be
inclusive, we don't do bullying, we don't do inappropriate
remarks, we need to make sure that we are embracing folks from
different backgrounds and making people feel welcome, then it's
very easy for that not to be the case. And values, our values can
be either expressed or implied, actual or aspirational. And in
reality, they should probably be all four. And so you know, when
you walk into an environment, you should be able to tell what
kind of values or culture you have just by how people treat
each other. But it also helps for it to be written somewhere.
And then in terms of your values, yeah, they should be
actual to an extent, but you should always aspire to want to
be better. And so you should also be quite aspirational with
the environment you want to have. And that's, that must flow
from the leadership. And there's also a need for it to be quite
constant. You can't just say things on day one and say
goodbye, have a good one. Because we're all human beings.
We're all you know, we're all imperfect. We all have good days
and bad days, for various reasons. You never really know
what somebody's going through outside of a working
environment. And so there's a need to constantly remind people
about the environment that you want to have. And then just
remember the fact that actually inclusion is everybody's
business. And when I say it's everybody's business, yes, it
must start with the leadership. But everybody must take a
proactive role in making sure that they are doing their bit to
make sure people, including outsiders feel like they can
flourish. So leaders play a huge role in terms of the role of the
facilitator, as I said, you know, for us to go get anywhere
in life, you know, somebody will always be responsible for
opening the door or helping us out or giving us a chance. And
that's the role of the facilitator, we must all play a
role as facilitator. But when you are quite senior, you must
play an even more proactive role. It's like constantly
thinking, Okay, who can I help? Who can I support? Who can I
give a chance, and your job is not necessarily to be
responsible for the outcome. You know, we don't need to
necessarily say, well, you know, if I gave Paul a helping hand,
really, really, really, you know, embrace this opportunity
and do well, actually, to a large extent, you know, the
outcome is not necessarily a facilitators responsibility, but
it's the responsibility to give the chance to give the
opportunity, and hopefully, things will work out. And
there's an inspirational story to tell as a result.
Zoe Amar: Yeah, completely agree with all that, I think that's
such an important thing for leaders to consider how they
facilitate that bringing together of different
communities in the workplace, and, and not to do it in a
performative way, either to give it that intention, and real
thought that you've described there.
Paul Thomas: First of all, I was gonna say, I think, you know, a
lot of the conversations we've had recently have been about the
next generation coming into the workplace and not sort of seeing
it in the same way that we perhaps do. So they are coming
in and immediately looking for that evidence of what is this
organisation for? What is it going to do? What are the values
and do I share those values, and if they don't see that being
reflected, they're not afraid to just walk away, they are not
afraid to just sort of move on to the next, the next place, we
can talk about having side hustles and moving from gig to
gig, the gig economy and stuff like that, that sort of have a,
almost like a negative connotation, but actually, it's
a massive positive for most young people. So I think
hopefully, it is changing. The last point I was going to make
was sort of a silly one, really. But when I was reading the book,
just before I went away on holiday, I was reflecting that
this was a lot like superheroes, most superheroes are outsiders,
and it brought to mind your sort of views around being an
outsider, and bringing outsiders together was a bit like
Professor X in the X Men where you have all of these different
powers and responsibilities that are very different to the world
around you that sort of mutant idea. But actually, when you
bring them all together, and an act, but the one that really,
really made me think was Batman, as you were talking just a few
minutes ago, I was thinking, actually, this is quite right.
You know, Batman, Bruce Wayne came from money, he was a huge
part of the city of Gotham, where you know, where he was
born, where his parents lived, and had a huge stake in the
city, but found the power to make positive change within the
city by becoming that outsider. And I think the Christopher
Nolan films really, really play on that. How do you enact change
by taking yourself completely out of the equation as he does
through the second and third film. So that was, it was a
reflection more than a question, but you know, do you see
yourself as a superhero?
Samuel Kasumu: Certainly not me, but that's great. Yeah. I mean,
that's a really interesting perspective. And maybe, maybe if
there's like a revision to the book, I'll add, I'll add Batman
to it. It's really true. I mean, you're right is he's part of the
establishment, but he separates himself for various reasons. And
that's the thing about being an outsider, it's so fluid. You
could be somebody who looks like me, but feel like an insider
very much, you know, I was talking about Kwasi Kwarteng,
who became Chancellor of the Exchequer, for the best part
five minutes. But yeah, very much more comfortable in certain
environments than I am. And so it's such a fluid interesting
science, but it's an important one. And if people can
understand the phenomenon more, it will just allow them to not
just understand themselves, but be able to understand how and
why society functions the way it does. That was, I mean, I was so
surprised that this the subject matter was just so under, under
researched. And the journey has just begun for me, because the
book came out in June. But the hope is that over the next two
or three or four years, we can really socialise the subject.
And as you mentioned, a lot of younger people, the next
generation are going into working environments, and they
have so many expectations about how that and why the environment
should function in particular ways. And so you've even got
this generational divide. And actually some people who are
from previous generations who now feel a bit isolated
themselves, they've Well, actually, you know, I don't
quite understand certain values that maybe younger people have,
and I don't necessarily fully agree with them, but I am losing
my voice in this environment. And so, the challenge is, we
need to find a way for everybody to better understand themselves
and each other, and be more accepting of this journey that
we're all on. We're all on. And so, as I say, so often in life,
I've come across people who sound like they completely
understand what needs to happen, or why we are where we all or
what the right perspective must be. But I always try to remind
people that we have never and I said this earlier that we have
never been in a moment like this. Society has never looked
or felt this way before. And so therefore, everybody's best
ideas is still part of a really interested in social experiment.
And we just all need to find a way to be able to mock in
together and try and figure it out as a society, because if we
don't, the future may look or maybe very, very bleak. And
that's what we need to try and avoid.
Zoe Amar: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right on that Samuel
and it's so interesting what you say about the generational
shift, I went in to talk to my daughter school recently about
inclusion. And they really were very much like, why wouldn't we
accept people who are different whereas I think my generation
you know, a lot of things you and I had to fight for have been
about but why would we accept these different ways of thinking
and being and I think it's going to be so exciting when that
younger generation really starts to come into the workplace,
because those older generations, they're gonna get a lot of
challenge. And as you say, it needs to happen. So exciting
times ahead on that. Samuel, thank you so much. We've loved
talking to you. I think this book is something which every
leader should read. And it's such an important contribution
to many of the themes that we've talked about on this podcast
around leadership and workplace culture, and ultimately, how we
can help everyone belong. So thank you so much for writing
it. And thank you for naming all of these elephants in the room,
which you and I will see every day in which needs to be talked
about which needs to be tackled, and which can ultimately help
make things better for everyone. So thank you for coming on
today. And thank you for sharing this wonderful book.
Samuel Kasumu: Thank you for having me. And thank you for
reading the book.
Zoe Amar: Our pleasure. I will you be writing another one?
Samuel Kasumu: Yes. Do I owe my current editor some work, which
I haven't done yet. But yeah, there's a second book.
Zoe Amar: Exciting, well do keep us posted!
Our thanks to Samuel for his time and contribution to the
podcast, The Power of the Outsider a Journey of Discovery
is published by Hodder books. And he's available now. And
we'll share a link to where you can buy the book in the show
notes. And just briefly speaking of books, I've also included a
link to a blog in the show notes about some other fantastic books
that you would highly recommend to our listeners.
Paul Thomas: Our next episode is going to be out now in a couple
of weeks and we'll be with Eloise Skinner, who is an
author, founder and psychotherapist and we'll be
talking to her about purpose at work.
Zoe Amar: You can support the podcast by leaving us a five
star review wherever you listen to us, whether that's Apple
podcasts, Spotify, or Google or simply hit share on the episode
and send it to someone who it's made you think of. Thank you for
listening.
Paul Thomas: Thank you very much for listening and bye for now.