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Lorraine Candy: I realised that my experience at midlife and
perimenopause is actually not uncommon. And as soon as I
noticed that I thought, well why not write about it. I'll put it
all in one place. But I'll do it in a soft, easy to read memoir
style.
Paul Thomas: Welcome to a brand new episode. And a brand new
season of Starts at the Top, our podcast about leading
differently. I'm Paul Thomas.
Zoe Amar: And I'm Zoe Amar, our podcast exists to help leaders
and their teams understand what they need to do differently
today, to prepare for the world of tomorrow. We started Starts
at the Top as a podcast about digital disruption. But we soon
realised that leaders were telling us about something more
important and urgent about how traditional ways of leading had
changed forever.
Paul Thomas: So we've made it our mission to speak to leaders
who are carving out new ways of leading and we cover topics from
emerging tech to inclusion, from remote work to mental health and
climate change. Basically, all the subjects that leaders today
need to be knowledgeable about. So no biggie there, then.
Zoe Amar: Our podcast isn't about shiny corporate case
studies. It's about lessons learned and progress made the
hard way, and crucially, how that can inspire others. We want
this podcast to span across sectors and industries. The
world can often seem very fragmented, and we believe that
lessons can be shared and learned whether you're leading a
small charity, aFootsie 100 multinational business or local
government think tank, we're all in this together.
Paul Thomas: So with that grand podcast reintroduction now
complete, let's tell you a bit more about today's episode with
Lorraine Candy. Lorraine is an award winning journalist and
host of the podcast Postcards from Midlife, which has had
millions and millions of downloads. With insight gained
from years of interviewing the top midlife experts and
celebrities as well on their experiences, Lorraine really is
one of the go to voices for a generation of women who are
seeking information and guidance.
Zoe Amar: Our conversation with Lorraine kicks off a run of four
episodes focused on women in leadership. Over the next few
weeks, we have interviews lined up with some amazing women, and
we can't wait to share them with you.
Paul Thomas: And later in the season, we'll be covering topics
Zoe Amar: [Laughs] Back to footbal!
such as AI, climate change, political influence, and
activism, and much, much more. And actually, it's political
activism and influence that I've thought we could discuss briefly
today before we introduce the conversation with Lorraine. And
that was around the ongoing sort of saga of we're in a big
election year, aren't we over this side of the pond and over
that side of the pond. And over that side of the pond there's a
big discussion going on at the moment about is it gonna be
Biden is it gonna be Trump, feels so like last time around
again. And the interesting thing within all of that was a
discussion I was having outside of a pub in London with a friend
of mine, about how Taylor Swift was going to play a big
influential part in this. And I just thought it was an
interesting thing to discuss the role of people outside of the
normal places that we look to for leadership politicians, you
know, leaders in that respect, that there is a sort of a whole
Paul Thomas: You know, his role as a leader within the community
new range of influence coming in. And I think reading between
the lines and looking at the article that we'll share in the
show notes. Taylor Swift isn't going to decide the outcome of
the US election, but what she will be able to do is motivate a
huge amount of numbers, people, fans of hers into actually going
and voting and having their say so I just thought it was
of Liverpool. You know, it really can't be sniffed at it is
interesting that that sort of that influence coming in from
to the level of a politician that people of Liverpool have so
other areas. The other example we discussed yesterday, briefly,
much trust in him as a figure as somebody who cares about their
city and about their football club. But it's that sort of idea
the role that Jürgen Klopp faces in news a lot in the last couple
that it's coming from all different channels.
of weeks.
Zoe Amar: Yeah, absolutely. So I think this is another angle on
the question, is it about, what does a leader look like now?
What does influence look like now in an election year, and
there was a piece that I wrote for Third Sector last week about
the amount of elections that are going on across the world. So I
think it's 4 billion people going to the polls, as I recall,
in more than 40 countries. So it's a really historic year and
the number of elections and the number of people that are voting
and where it comes back to Taylor Swift is that's gonna be
really important in mobilising the the youth vote and turnout
from young voters. So that's where I think younger influences
such as Swift could really make a difference. But you're right,
I think with iconic figures such as Taylor Swift, there's
something about how and also Jürgen Klopp as well, there's
something about how people have a lot of trust and confidence in
people in those positions and the way that they probably don't
for a lot of mainstream politicians, because the whole
game of politics has sort of changed so much. So I do think
there is something really interesting, and I'm sure we
will be exploring it as we go through this year around
elections and how to prepare for them and also the role that all
of this is going to occupy in organisational conversations
about politics too.
Paul Thomas: Yeah, totally, totally. I think it's gonna be a
really interesting area. And as you say, we have got people
lined up to speak to later in the season, to find out their
views on all of this, and a couple of open spots. So Taylor,
if you're listening, Jürgen if you're listening, and you fancy
coming on and sharing things. Well look, Jürgen's out of a job
coming this summer, so he's gonna have plenty of time on his
hands. So he's more than welcome to come on. And would always,
you know, welcome to chat with Taylor Swift if she can fit us
in.
Zoe Amar: So would I, so would I.
Paul Thomas: So now for our conversation with Lorraine
Candy. And a big thank you to Lorraine for taking the time out
of her schedule to come on to the podcast. I just wanted to
say before we introduce it, before we fully introduce
Lorraine, that as the male half of this duo I really recommend
that all men listening to this podcast, go out and get a copy
of What's Wrong with Me. When it came through the door, I opened
it up and my wife said oh that's on my reading list. So I've
handed it over to her now. I learned a huge amount from
reading it about women in general and also what might be
going on in my own life and our own lives here. But I learned a
huge amount from reading it. And whilst there always be more to
learn Lorraine's book is a really accessible entry point
for men to learn about menopause. And it's also a book
that should be in every leaders toolkit.
Zoe Amar: Well, I really enjoyed reading it, as well. I totally
echo what you said. And I also felt this book came out just the
right moment in my life to read it. Lorraine describes so
brilliantly the huge tumultuous shifts that happened in midlife
and how to deal with them. So I think it's an essential read.
Paul Thomas: Yeah, and funny. And in places very, very
fraught. The chapters on her kids leaving the nest, were
actually harrowing. I'm not looking forward to that at all.
Zoe Amar: Oh I'm not looking forward to that.
Paul Thomas: But anyway, no not at all. Anyway, now for our
conversation with Lorraine.
Zoe Amar: We are very excited to welcome Lorraine Candy to Starts
at the Top. Lorraine Candy is a mother of four and an award
winning journalist with over three decades of experience
writing about women's lives and parenting in national newspapers
and magazines, and its former editor in chief of Elle, Sunday
Times Style and Cosmopolitan, a hugely engaged community of
listeners from hosting the podcast Postcards from Midlife,
over 1.5 million downloads, and a brilliant podcast, which I
highly recommend. And many insights gained from years of
interviewing the top midlife experts and celebrities on their
experiences. Lorraine is a go to voice for a generation of women
seeking information and guidance. She is the Sunday
Times best selling author of Mum, What's Wrong with You?: 101
Things Only Mothers of Teenage Girls Know which I really need
to read as the mother of an 11 year old. And we're here today
to talk about her wonderful new book, the paperback launch of
her latest book What’s Wrong With Me?: 101 Things Midlife
Women Need to Know which Paul and I read recently and
absolutely loved. Lorraine, we are so excited you're here.
Thank you for coming on Starts at the Top.
Lorraine Candy: Thank you so much for having me. I think we
didn't update the bio. We're nearly 5 million downloads on
our podcast. So it's a really big community now.
Zoe Amar: Oh, congratulations! That's super exciting!
Lorraine Candy: Yeah I know very exciting. Can't quite believe
it! [Laughs]
Zoe Amar: That's amazing. Well done. Super! So can you tell our
listeners about your latest book? What's wrong with me? Can
you tell them what it's about? What compelled you to write it?
Lorraine Candy: Well, I started writing it sort of four or five
years ago just after I'd finished my parenting book
because I realised that I had quite a large Generation X
community around me because of the magazines I did, because I
did at Cosmo at its peak of its success because I did it at Elle
and you know, I'd written a column in a national newspaper.
So I had this community and we all seem to be going through a
fairly similar thing and I was talking about it with my friends
and I was writing about health journalism at the time, in
national newspapers and I realised that my experience of
midlife and perimenopause was not uncommon what I was going
through, which I thought was extraordinary and ridiculous.
And I thought I had a brain tumour or something quite
seriously wrong with me, was actually not uncommon, according
to the science and the health, the medicine around it. And as
soon as I noticed that, I thought, Well, why not write
about it, because I feel, you know, I communicate a lot with
my community on social media. And I thought I should just put
it all in one place, I'll research all this information.
I've got ultimate access to all these leaders to all these
experts to all these medics, I'll put it all in one place.
But I'll do it in a soft, easy to read memoir style, so that
women aren't terrified because I don't think you should be
terrifying women, particularly now, as women come into this
stage of their lives is a perfectly normal thing to go
through, we all experience it in a different way. But if you've
got all the information, then it's a bit easier. So I thought,
let's put a book together on women's experience of midlife,
the good and the bad. And this huge transitional phase, what
you're going through mentally and physically.
Zoe Amar: Feels like a very revolutionary and exciting act,
doesn't it to have a book like this, because one of the things
that occurred to me as I was reading it over the Christmas
holidays was Gosh, I wish I could have been prepared for all
of this. Why isn't this something that younger women get
told about?
Lorraine Candy: Well, why isn't... I mean, there's a lot
of things that women aren't taught about. I mean, I, you
know, without boiling it down generically, we live in a
patriarchal society that was built by men and for men. So you
know, even from product design, from experience, from the way we
work, from the way we live from the way we parent, the emotional
labour, all of that. So nobody has really been talking about
women's experiences in depth, and linking it all up, no one
has been joining the dots. And yeah, we've had some really
Senior NHS experts on the show, we've had the kind of highest
ranked maternal health experts on the show, and Lesley Regan,
we do not join up from teenage till we die with women, so and
we don't really have all the research, and how it affects
women. So for example, heart disease is the biggest killer of
women after 50. That was a revolution revelation to me, I
had absolutely no idea. And I come from a family with a huge
history of heart disease. So all the work though all the
research, and this is one leading cardiologist told me
this is all men, and men have a very different physiology around
their heart. So something that really that kills more women, at
a particular stage of life, all the work has been done on men so
you know, there are so many examples of this. And that, you
know, I'm not a scientist, I'm not a data scientist, either. So
I just started to find all of this out, sort of got to put all
the details so that people women ask the right questions, so they
get the right information. So in some ways, it is revolutionary.
But in some ways, I'm just sort of rolling my eyes and saying,
Well, you know, it's like running shoes, isn't it? They
were designed for men and men have got completely different
shapes from women, and it's that kind of eye rolling. Here we go
again, feeling around it.
Zoe Amar: Yeah, absolutely. And I found what was really exciting
about the book, I mean, obviously, there's that whole
sense of realising the way society is so orientated around
men, including the experience of ageing, and yet I found the book
really uplifting. It's not particularly the final chapters,
because you talk about the transformation and liberation
that midlife women experience. So I, I entered the book on a
really positive note on that. What do you wish you'd known
about this chapter of your life? Before you went into it? You
talked about the science side of things, the upheaval side of
things, but is there anything that you wish you'd known before
you went into this phase of life?
Lorraine Candy: Yes, I wish I'd known the medical side of it.
And all that was available to me to change my life because I was
very lucky hormone replacement therapy changed my life
overnight, it was just extraordinary brought me back
into the room again, and many women will tell you that and as
we know there's huge amount of misinformation around it. But
what I didn't know is that you do in any period of transition,
you're in a sort of voyage or between one place and the next.
And you need to stop in that void. Feel all the feelings in
the body, you need to deal with all the retrospective feelings
that come forward. You need to look at where you are and who
you are and who you want to be. And you, you get a very stark
realisation that you've got less left than you've had. So you
want to really take stock and I wish I'd known that this moment
was coming because I wouldn't have continued in kind of
perhaps the same. I think it's probably particular to Gen X,
this kind of relentless movement moving forward, slightly
ambitious what next feeling. I wish I'd take known it was
coming because I would have known to take the moment and to
have known. I wasn't alone in wanting to take that moment. And
I needed to. And that, you know, the next step is very important,
but also really can be quite amazing. All the women I
interviewed who were sort of 60 plus for the book, told, even
though they'd gone through really heartbreaking things,
told extraordinary stories of finding themselves being
confident in themselves, having this new renewed energy, and
this real thought process of I can be and do what I want to do
now, regardless of their background and their financial,
it was a really living in the moment. And I wish I'd known all
that was coming and was a possibility because I wasted
time, you know, trying to sort out the menopause and
perimenopause. And I wasted time with a mindset I'd had before,
which didn't serve me now.
Zoe Amar: Absolutely. And I love your description there of the
void. And also just that value in the transition where the work
happens. And the growth happens. And sometimes you look back on
these things, I think whether whatever kind of life transition
you're going through, and you think, actually, that was really
hard, but I learned a lot. Is that something you felt as you
went through that transition?
Lorraine Candy: All life has changed and I think you get to
this stage of life, and you think this change will be
constantly it will be all day every day. So I'm going to sit
with it and just be in it. Rather than thinking when this
is done, I can sort that out. Or if this is done, I will be
happier. Really just the hopefulness and keeping the hope
and being optimistic and upbeat is what sort of moves you
forward. But living in the present is really necessary, I
think, as you age. So I think that's the main thing I learned
that you know, everything will change, no one day will be the
same because something will happen in that day, particularly
at this stage of life and teenagers, elderly parents, you
might be changing jobs. It's the highest divorce rate for women
after the age of 45. It's also the highest suicide rate for
women after the age of 45. So much is happening. There is no
point forward planning and trying to have a kind of logical
goal sets goal driven, you really got to live in the moment
and deal with the change and accept that there will be change
every day.
Zoe Amar: So with that in mind, how do you think that employers
and leaders could better support women in midlife?
Lorraine Candy: Well, we Trish Halpin and I who we co host a
podcast called Postcards from Midlife. So we've done you know,
and she the magazines I didn't edit she edited so she had this
Mary Claire read in style. So between us we've edited all
those magazines we know women of this generation, we know the
women going through midlife now. So we go into lots of big
corporations and talk to them about how to empower their
female workforce over the age of 40. Some women go into
menopause, perimenopause, a bit earlier, but what we've learned
is it's really about whoever is responsible for your kind of
occupational health, your personnel, knowing the facts and
knowing the resources. So the big myths around HRT that it
will give you breast cancer not true. So once somebody knows all
the details, and we always refer to Dr. Louise Newton, who's kind
of the pioneer in researching that, and a lot of the facts
around HRT are based on a very misleading, debunked, now
debunked American survey. So you need your teams to know all of
the facts. It's not about turning the heating down, or
having fans on desks, that's hardly any women get hot
flashes. So it really isn't about that or having different
uniforms, particularly in the NHS, which is a massive employer
of women. It's about believing women who say, these are some of
the things I'm going through at the moment, which is making it a
little difficult for me to do my work, how can I resolve them so
I can be better at what I do or more efficient or happier in my
role. So it's about your teams, who are there to make people
well at work and happy at work, knowing all the facts, and I'm
afraid they just don't know all the facts at the moment. So they
need to get with all the resources they need to know
about all the books, you need to know about the latest research,
they need to have GPS, who are modern, you've done the training
so that I think they'd make a really big change. And I don't
want this to portray women at this stage of life as being
weaker or worse at their jobs or not as good at their jobs as men
because men go through a fairly they go through quite tumultuous
midlife stage themselves. It's both got physical and mental
aspects to it too. So we're all going through something because
women at this stage as well are often have a lot more time so
they can spend a lot more time being more efficient at work.
They're very, very experienced. Many get this surge of energy
and confidence after they've worked out how to deal with
menopause and perimenopause. So they're incredibly valuable, and
their training is really valuable to the workforce. So if
your leaders know what's going on and the people responsible
for that need to talk up as well as down so often in many places
at the top level, it will be mostly men. But it will be men
whose wives, if we're talking about this time and this present
moment, whose wives may very well be going through, its
partners, daughters may be going through this as well. So it does
for everybody to know all the nation really, I think that's
the main thing for everyone to know the information and the new
information and the NHS guidelines, which have always
said HRT is the first line of treatment for menopause and
perimenopause symptoms, that just hasn't been known. There's
been so much misinformation, and you know, the symptoms, leading
anything from tinnitus to dizziness to suicidal ideation.
So it's serious. So when someone's talking about that,
then you need to be able to help them get help for them.
Zoe Amar: Absolutely, it feels like such a key responsibility
of leaders and also the workplace and the systems is
supporting people like HR to really be on top of all this
because as your book outlines, it's, there's so much happening
and there is a lot to get on top of isn't there.
Lorraine Candy: There is a lot of resource and information has
always been out there, though, but it's just been, you know,
neglected people have not been interested in this area of
medical science or this area of medical support. So it's making
them interesting that you don't want women to come out of the
workplace at a time when they're particularly well skilled,
particularly in medical areas, you know, had colleagues in the
NHS during COVID, who found the PPE was all designed for men
anyway, because it was too big, but also found it unbearable,
because of some of the symptoms that were going through. And you
didn't want to lose those women, that's just a little tweak of
things that can be done. So it's really important, everyone knows
the facts of what's going on, and that every woman will have a
slightly different experience. But we don't want to scare
monger, we want to just say this is the next stage of life. There
are some things you should know about our teams know about it,
we can help you through it. We will have women who've been
through it and talk to you about it. There's plenty of resources,
there's about 10 books out on it at the moment as well.
Paul Thomas: We also talked recently to Dr. Lucy Ryan, who's
written a book called Revolting Women. And she was talking about
this very fact that within companies and I think you
mentioned it as well, in the episode of the podcast you
recorded with Annie Mac. It was her podcast sorry, it wasn't an
episode of your podcast, it was Annie Mac's podcast wasn't it,
but the idea that midlife seems to be missing from a lot of
organisations views on HR policies and things like that,
it just doesn't seem to be something that's discussed. And
I reflected, I'm working with a client at the moment, who are
very carefully sort of picking their way through a lot of that
sort of territory, but midlife just isn't on the agenda. So I
think there's probably something to do with levelling the
conversation out to have midlife as a general thing that a lot of
employees will be going through at the table as well. So it
doesn't become that sort of scare mongering. It's everyone's
going through this and there are differences between the ways
that men and women are experiencing it. But basically,
a lot of people at a very, very critical time in their lives are
going through this and they're going through it at home and
critically at work too.
Lorraine Candy: I think hearing people around you being able to
talk about it out loud is really important. I think it's really
important that we use a healthy positive language ourselves that
we don't buy into this Oh, I'm having a hot flash, I can't
remember anything brain fog joke element that seems to be around
as well. I think we need to avoid that in the workplace.
This is just there is a problem, there is a solution usually so
let's work it out for both men and women. It's a little bit
like working out, you know how we work in the workplace when we
have family demands and responsibilities and who's
responsible for that. It's just another thing we need to be well
aware of, but just extraordinarily has never been
talked about. It just seems the most bizarre. And I think that's
what Trish and I found as journalists we've been doing
this a really long time working in the field of health, you
know, and I worked on the Times and the Sun I worked on all and
I think never, never was mentioned and I specialised in
women's stories is just so extraordinary. It was just
completely ignored for so many years and it has taken women
like Davina McCall talking about it you know Lorraine Kelly has
taken people with massive reach who've been through it, talking
about it to really get it hold people. But you know I say that
and we live in this London leadership bubble in it in a way
or the Southeast bubble, but there are huge chunks of the
country where women simply still don't know about it from all
different backgrounds, we know it's much more difficult for
black and brown women to access proper support from their GPS,
they're often believed less than white women. So just research
around that. So we know this is a real struggle out outside of
the kind of more media centric bubbles, we're all talking about
it, but it really did need, it does need people to be in their
communities talking about it as well, and then affecting that
workforce there.
Paul Thomas: So talking of communities, I think that the
sort of need more information and don't have the information,
this book, your book arrived through the post and I opened it
in the kitchen, and my wife saw it and she said, Oh, that's on
my reading list. And I thought to myself, while I was reading
through the book, there are going to be many situations
where in our household, the man in the household is reading the
book before the wife or actually wants to read it. And what I've
thought was, there is a big recommendation coming from me
to, for men to pick up this book and read it. And hopefully, take
as much out of it as I did, and learn as much from it as I did.
But hopefully, they will be asking the question, how can
they support their wives? How can they support women in their
lives, whether it's at work or at home? So what can men do to
help other than pick up the book and read it of course.
Lorraine Candy: Yeah I had an amazing man when I was at a book
festival in Cornwall, I'm from Cornwall, it was quite big
festival. And he'd accidentally walked into my talk. I think he
thought it was something about machine which came before. And
he stayed all the way through. And then he came in and he had
five books, he said, Oh, my God, this is it. This is what this is
what's happening, I had no idea what was going on at home, I
bought five books, because I think my sister is going through
it as well. And I'm gonna pass on the knowledge so that you
know, what men can do is listen, this is not about fixing. So
we're not saying to male leaders or male partners, you've got to
fix us, we're saying, Can you listen to us, which is a
difficult skill for men. And I don't say that off the top of my
head. I say that having researched that for my book on
parenting teenagers, actually, when I was looking at dads and
daughters, it's really hard for dads to listen without trying to
fix it. So they stopped listening, because I keep
thinking I'm going to sort this out, I'm going to sort this out.
So their actual active responsive brain just shuts down
because they're already thinking what they can do to help. So
that's not what we're asking for. We are asking for you to
listen and bear with us while we find and help us with the
solutions. One of the things we always advise to women and we
advise this when we give talks in the workplace is that if you
go to the GP and you are told, you probably should take
antidepressants, because anxiety is a huge symptom of declining
oestrogen. But you don't want to do that. And you don't think
it's right. And you don't think the GP's told you the right
thing. You can then have the right to go to another GP and
say I'm not happy with that I've read about this. I would like to
talk about this. Take your partner with you. Because it's
really hard. The declining oestrogen affects the way your
brain works. So you sometimes you physically cannot remember
anything. And this is not a bit of brain fog. I forgot what side
of the road to drive on. My brain couldn't find the vital,
just couldn't find it. So that was a neurological breakdown,
which is very common when oestrogen, testosterone all
those hormones are fluctuating or decreasing. So you need
someone with you when you go to get this information. So go with
your partner so that you can find out about it. So when
you're having these conversations at work, don't say
there's a big con, we're going to have a big talk about the
menopause, and then only send an email to the female staff. That
has happened. So and I would say with corporations, and we've
done some banks and big things, we've had, like 400 people on
the Zoom call, I would say 300 will be women you really need as
many men in the room listening as you do and really just being
listening rather than thinking, I can't fix this or I can't fix
this.
Zoe Amar: Yes, it's essential isn't it, is really important
that everyone takes ownership of this information and thinks
about how they can act. For me it's part of creating a really,
ultimately inclusive workplace.
Lorraine Candy: I think it's the same kind of thing when I was
editing Elle we had just integrated the digital team with
the print team. We were the first ever publication to do it,
we all worked together on a hot desk around a glass fashion
cupboard because obviously the fashion is the central content
for Elle. So it was quite revolutionary. Some of it
worked. Some of it didn't. But as a leader I realised sitting
out with my team that I had to really accommodate many
different people. And at that time, I did a lot of research
into how we accommodate more neuro diverse members of the
workforce, because, you know, fashion encourages, and it
really is a bit of a magnet for really creative people who work
in a very different way from perhaps more logical people. So
I was seeing lots of different personalities. And I think, in a
way, this is just another way of we must include everyone, and
the way they work, we must be mindful of how what everyone's
needs are within the workplace. You know, we don't have to bend
over backwards and change everything because we still got
to deliver but under the banner of still delivering to the
business, how can we get the most of that out of our
employees by being mindful of the way they were, and many of
them work in different ways. For example, I had an employee that
just simply could not come in on time. And I just thought, well,
you can't, I don't really want to fire her for not being able
to come in on time, there's something clearly going wrong.
And we looked into how it was working, what was working, and
actually, she was much more effective coming in at 11
instead of 9.30. It was a very simple switch didn't really
affect me didn't affect the business. We did, uh, you know,
we had a look at how it would work. So it's that kind of, you
know, that's a very tiny, probably inconsequential
example, but it's that kind of thinking, if you've got an 80%
female workforce, you really need an HR team that knows
absolutely everything about the menopause and perimenopause to
work with them.
Zoe Amar: Absolutely, yeah, we would highly recommend this book
to any HR professionals listening today.
Lorraine Candy: I think also Dr. Louise Newson's book and
Davina's book and there is a book called Your Hormone Doctor,
which is a really brilliant book about how you can work with
midlife.
Zoe Amar: Fantastic. I'll have to put those on my reading list
as well. Thank you. So one of the things you described in the
book, which I found especially fascinating was how cultures
such as Japan have different attitudes to ageing and the
menopause. Can you tell us more about this and what we could
learn from it?
Lorraine Candy: Well I interviewed women from all
backgrounds for the book, and really age range sort of 40 to
82, I think the eldest said it was, and from all sorts of parts
of the world. And I also interviewed a really great
obstetrician and gynaecologist called Dr. Vikram Talaulikar and
he worked in a community from various different parts of the
world, and obviously looked at the research and in places in
Japan, for example, they call it the Second Spring. And their
diet is slightly more suited after the age of 42. Women's
oestrogen levels, so I didn't look into it in detail. But I
think it's something to do with the amount of soy that's eaten.
So it's, there is an attitude, cultural attitude in the Western
world, though, that we will experience a problem, whereas in
other parts of the world, women are much, you know, we will
experience a problem and we will be a problem. Whereas in other
parts of the world, older women are really revered, they're
revered for a kind of sexual liberation, as well, in many
cultures, you know, because obviously, there's no chance of
pregnancy. So it really is about your sexuality, which is seen as
very powerful in many parts of the world, and revered as having
time to be able to make decisions and be part of
decision making processes within communities and promoted to you
know, higher levels of whatever industry they're in. So it's a
real shame that in this culture, it has such a negative, you
know, talking about it more and all the negative aspects of it,
which I absolutely believe we must do, until that message has
got through does contribute a little bit to our generally
negative attitude towards it. Whereas in other places in the
world getting older is seen as a really liberating, amazing
thing, you know, because obviously, the alternative is
terrible. So it's yeah, I didn't go in depth into that. But I do
know that places like Japan, it is much more of a positive
experience.
Zoe Amar: I found that especially fascinating because
my heritage is mixed Chinese and English, and my mother's Chinese
and in Chinese culture, often, age is seen as being synonymous
with wisdom. So yeah, I think that's I think it's really
fascinating to read about how the different cultures tackle
this kind of life transition, so speaking of those moments...
Lorraine Candy: We're quite heavily influenced here then
aren't we by the media and entertainment so we don't see
all the women in films and TV we do more so now but we don't see
the films, they were never on telly. We don't see it as a good
thing because we just don't see it so.
Zoe Amar: Yeah I think that's so true, isn't it? I mean, I really
enjoyed the Sex and the City reboot And Just Like That, and
afterwards I was thinking, Gosh, I don't think I have ever seen
women in midlife portrayed in this way before and why not
because they've got agency. They're making different
choices. They're entering this new chapter and doing completely
different things. And I think you're right. It feels like such
a limited way in which midlife women get portrayed in the
media.
Lorraine Candy: It is limited, it's limited, and it's kind of
cliched, but it's again, it's the, you know, it's a
patriarchal thing, isn't it most, all the surveys on TV in
the last five years less programmes are made by women,
less programmes are written by women. Less adverts are made by
women. It is going down, not up. So we aren't going to be there
because we're not involved in the process of putting us there.
I mean, there's one or two standout. I think things that
happen. I think Bridget Christie's programme The change
on Channel Four was an extraordinary comedy, which I
don't think would have been made five years ago. I just think it
wouldn't even got past the commissioner. So you know, and
I, we interviewed Georgia Pritchett, who was one of the
writers of Succession. And she wrote the Gerry character and
again, initially that was supposed to be a male character,
they kept the name. And the male script writer said, let's keep,
alright, let's make it women because otherwise every
boardroom scene will just be men. So we need to have a woman
in there but you know well let's make her them to kind of
matriarchal figure, the maternal figure, look, and Georgia was
like, no, we're going to make her really sexual. We're not
going to make her this maternal. We're going to do the woman that
we think we would see if she wasn't constricted, so but that
character would not have been written without a woman like
Georgia Pritchett, a midlife woman who had such a menopause
story to tell herself that she just wouldn't Gerry wouldn't
have been written so that and it's so rare to see that kind of
woman in society here. So of course, we don't, you know, our
daughters aren't seeing it, they might be seeing it a little bit
more now. But, you know, if easily changed this, we just
need to open the creative doors to more women to say yes to more
women.
Zoe Amar: Oh, amen to that. So one of the things we loved about
the book was your description of how midlife forces us to sit
with discomfort and painful feelings. Is there any advice
you'd give to someone who is at the start of sitting with that
process of discomfort and these difficult feelings?
Lorraine Candy: I think men go through this as well. So once
you've sorted out the physical side of your life, got your
sleep back, taking HRT, if you can, and changing your diet, all
the things that we get a little bit less healthy after we've had
kids and all that, because we just don't put ourselves first
we don't take care of ourselves. So once you've done that, you
have to realise that you might be thinking, you might have not
met your expectations of where you wanted to be in life, you
might not be happy with your partner, your long term, but
because you're a changed, different changing different
person. So there is that divorce and all of that that happens to
women at this stage of life. And I think what I was told by Julia
Samuel, who's an amazing therapist, who's written several
books, around therapy with families, within families and
how it works and how we change as we age, is that there is this
place called the void. And to get past any pain, you know,
it's an agent of change pain, you know change is coming is to
really take care of yourself in the moment so that you aren't
feeling physically unwell, to allow yourself to really just
sit with those feelings and go through it can be a bit
miserable, you feel like you've lost your mojo, don't really
know who you are, you only have this kind of tumultuous sense of
identity loss when you're in your teenage years. So it's the
other time I think we all feel it, because we don't know who we
are really then either, but we just keep moving forward with it
because that's all we know, in our teenage years. So I think
you just have to acknowledge it's going to happen, it's going
to be a bit painful, but out the other side is pretty amazing.
Paul Thomas: And you mentioned the idea in the book of the
midlife MOT in our situation here that would I guess look
like me and my wife getting together and having that
conversation about expectations and what we expect for the next
few years and just having that conversation out loud, which
probably most people don't.
Lorraine Candy: I think I wrote it when I came back from work
after my fourth baby. I wrote a piece for one of the papers, I
think it's The Guardian about a contract. We don't ever sit down
together with our partners that we have children with and say
who exactly is going to do what? How is our day going to go?
Particularly for Gen X heterosexual couples, we just
carried on without any thought about how our days were going to
change. Now we had four children under 10 and I just picked up
the stuff that I needed to pick up while I was working full time
I changed my working schedule at work I had, I went into work
with a contract saying right I'm finishing at five o'clock, we're
going to change this printing schedule of magazine, I'm going
to have every other Friday off, but I'm still going to meet
these goals, we're going to review it every three months. I
didn't do that at home. And I always advise people to do that.
And I think when you hit midlife, you've got to sit down
and think, right, okay, is this what I really want to do? And
why do I feel this way? Why am I working? So why do I feel I
worked so hard? So why am I working? So keep asking the why
question. And just review yourself physically, from an MOT
point of view, but also take agency over your own health. I
think a lot of women in their 40s begin to think, right, okay,
I'm going to sort this out, I'm not just going to be fobbed off
anymore, I'm going to go back in and get a second opinion. But
also to think is this the place I want to live? Is this the way
I want to live? Is this how I want to interact with my teenage
children or my children you've left home, it's really about
being quite specific about it and thinking it through.
Paul Thomas: Do you think you would have changed anything
about the latter stages of your magazine career, knowing what
you know, now? Do you think anything would have changed? You
wouldn't have done anything differently or no regrets?
Lorraine Candy: Yes, I think I wouldn't have been so hard on
myself. I was you know, getting up at like, I think because my
perimenopause was a bit extreme. And I had such severe brain fog,
and I was so depressed, I think I would have if I'd known that
was coming and then been able to get the medical help to go on
HRT earlier, I would have then sat down and thought, okay, hold
on, some of the things that I've done, I do not need to get up at
five o'clock to make sure I get through this list. I'm going to
delegate more. You know, I'm going to work out how I work my
home life and my family life so that I'm not so grumpy and angry
and cross all the time. Because that's not helpful to anybody.
So yes, I really regret of the last sort of, from the age of
sort of 47 to 50, not sorting it out quicker. And, you know, I
was offered antidepressants twice by my doctors. And I
didn't think it was right. Why on earth the first time I didn't
say no, that's not right, please go see another doctor, which I
know is perfectly within my right to do on the NHS, I don't
know, I would just take more agency for making my life
better. And I really would slow down. I you know, I think
particularly I did a chapter on burnout for Gen X, I think Gen
X, we were driven to do really well at home. And really well,
you know, I come from a very working class background, I felt
incredibly lucky to be where I was, and I wasn't going to let
go of that. And I was going to work so hard. And actually, that
does have quite an extreme effect on your health, I think
in the end. And really what I needed to do sort of at 45. And
I would say to a lot of women in their mid 40s is to step back
and slow down a little bit. Work out how you can still achieve
your goals at work. But review it so that you aren't burnt out
trying to do that. How can you share the load? There's a very
small window of tolerance for stress as you get older. And I
think if I'd known that my window of tolerance was closing,
I would have done less stressful things.
Paul Thomas: Yeah, I think that's sound advice. I feel that
nearly every day that, the stress levels for just the
smallest little things that you just sort of you snap whereas
before we were just sort of brushed it off, it's absolutely
fine.
Zoe Amar: Yeah, full disclosure, I live my life with this general
feeling of being on the edge. I love spinning all the plates but
I know exactly what you both mean about having this much more
focused window for stress, it feels like a big part of that is
all the juggling isn't it as much as the life phase.
Paul Thomas: But I've never thought of it in this way. Well
look you've just described it perfectly Lorraine, I think
there is within this within our generation there is this sense
that you can do everything you need to do everything. And we
we've talked several times in this podcast with other people
about the next generation coming along and having that sort of
take it or leave it happy go lucky sort of approach to the
world of work that we just we just never had.
Lorraine Candy: Well, I worked with a lot of much younger women
in the industry I was in and actually on newspapers as well
in the latter end of my career. And I learned a lot about women
saying, younger women saying oh no, I don't want to do that and
be too stressfull you know, I just I'm gonna go because I
don't feel great now like you know the things that perhaps a
more martyr attitude was not healthy to have. And I think we
don't do ourselves any favours by not welcoming in the modern
way of working as well. You know that a lot of the digital
advances in journalism were making our lives easier. But I
think part of the time we were thinking and this is just
another thing I've got to learn or another thing I've got to be
part of and actually, particularly a lot of the
production logistic processes that was there to make my life
easier and I was slightly dreading it thinking I had to
add it to my to do list to know how to make that work. It's you
know, it's about giving yourself some softness around who you are
as well, I think.
Paul Thomas: That's great thanks. And so wrapping up then
with sort of a final question and this is a podcast about
exploring leadership and everything that's changing with
leadership and has changed over the past few years in
particular. So what one piece of advice would you give to leaders
about midlife women? If you could give one piece of advice,
what would it be?
Lorraine Candy: Well I've managed really big teams and
worked within massive teams on newspapers. And I've managed
very small, specific targeted teams for very specific things
as well. And I've had quite a lot of career coaching
throughout that. And I would say, and I really enjoyed being
a leader, it was really no is one of the perks of my job, I
felt incredibly privileged, but I would say, you really have to
work at how your style affects other people, and where you are
within that. And in order to do that you need to learn to
listen, and you need to learn to work out how everyone's working
together. And I think if you look around your room, and you
have midlife women in there, they will all be going through
something even if they absolutely sail through the
physical aspects of menopause and perimenopause and
perimenopause can start in your early 40s. There will be huge
pressures at home that you perhaps aren't aware of I mean,
we are all dealing with elderly parents, we're all dealing with
children, I totally underestimated how empty nest
and when my two eldest left home, I completely
underestimated how that was going to affect me it was
absolutely devastating. I just thought I'd sail through that.
So all there is a lot going on. So you need to recognise that
within your workforce and bring the wellness I hate to use that
word wellness, because I hate it into the workplace, I think
because you will have a much stronger workforce if you do
that. And if you understand what's going on, and it's not
making women weaker. It's about making anyone at works life
better. That's what we should all be doing as leaders. So
it's, you know, you have to dump that negative attitude towards
it and think how am I going to make it easier for my brilliant
women to perform better at work? Because women are absolutely
amazing in the workforce, if you if we so many women are going
through all of the things that I was going through and still hit,
you know, hitting targets and becoming CEOs and becoming, you
know, fighter pilots and all that while going through that.
And I think, good God if they could do all of that and still
achieve at this level, that's extraordinary. Imagine the power
of this army of women fueled by the things they need without
worrying about everything that they're going through and going
through it then it's just they're incredibly resourceful
as members of your workforce.
Zoe Amar: Absolutely. I mean, just imagine what could happen
with the right tools, the right support the right understanding
from leaders. Wow, I think midlife women could be even more
unstoppable.
Lorraine Candy: They are quite, they can they can do a lot. Also
they are they do get this like don't give a shit attitude,
which I think is really helpful in the workforce. They have a
kind of I'm gonna make this happen. And I am not worried
about what you think about me. I'm just gonna get it done in
the most efficient way possible and the kindest way possible,
they really aren't gonna listen to all the stuff around them.
Zoe Amar: 100% and I'm definitely seeing that amongst
my my peer group. What an amazing inspiring note to end
on. Thank you so much, Lorraine. We love this book, we highly
recommend it to everyone listening to this podcast. Is
there anything you want to say about the paperback launch
before we wrap up?
Lorraine Candy: No, I think I changed the title slightly on
the paperback. It's instead of 101 things it says, From
Unravelling to Reinvention because I do think what we lost
when we didn't put it on the first book is that it is a
reinvention. And it is an incredibly powerful, positive
time of life. And I just want to make sure all women know that
and that they're not alone. I think that's the main thing. A
lot of women felt alone. But I would hope that your generation
Zoe and younger millennials coming through won't feel alone
now because there's so much information out there.
Zoe Amar: Thank you to Lorraine. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
And reinvention. I think I may have to write that on a post it
and put it above my desk in it to be my watch word through this
phase of my life. Thank you so much for coming on Starts at the
Top. We really appreciate it.
Lorraine Candy: Thank you for having me.
Paul Thomas: Thank you for coming on. And my wife can now
have this copy of the book and she can read it.
Lorraine Candy: Good luck to her!
Paul Thomas: Once again, thanks to Lorraine for taking time out
of her schedule to come on to the podcast.
Zoe Amar: And thank you from me too. We absolutely love the book
and as a long term fan of Lorraine and her writing. It was
such a pleasure to talk to her.
Paul Thomas: We really do appreciate that you've listened
all the way to the end of the episode. Thank you so much. As
always, you can support the podcast by leaving us a five
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Zoe Amar: Thank you so much for listening today. And we will see
you in a couple of weeks with a brand new episode of Starts at
the Top with a very exciting guest!
Paul Thomas: Will see you then and bye for now.
Zoe Amar: See you soon.