Nikki Bell: How do I be like more vulnerable and open about
how I'm feeling and helping to articulate those in a much
better way, because it does create better change.
Zoe Amar: Welcome to a brand new episode of Starts at the Top,
our podcast about leading differently. I'm Zoe Amar.
Paul Thomas: And I'm Paul Thomas. Our podcast exists to
help leaders and their teams to understand what they need to do
differently today to prepare for the world of tomorrow. We
started Starts at the Top as a podcast about digital
disruption. But we soon realised that leaders were telling us
something more important and urgent about how traditional
ways of leading had changed forever.
Zoe Amar: We make it our mission to speak to leaders who are
carving out new ways of leading, and we cover topics from
emerging tech to inclusion to remote work to mental health and
climate change. Basically, all the subjects that today's
leaders need to be across in 2024.
Paul Thomas: Our podcast isn't about shiny corporate case
studies, it's about lessons learned and the progress made
the hard way, and crucially how that can inspire others.
Zoe Amar: And on today's episode, we speak to Nikki Bell,
one of the co-founders of Fundraising Everywhere, the
online community for professional development, peer
support, and networking for fundraisers and future charity
leaders.
Paul Thomas: And this, I think, is a conversation that I will
remember for a very, very long time. And so one that we do have
to include a trigger warning for this episode centres on how
leaders best response to death and grief in the workplace. So
if you think these are topics that you would like to avoid at
this time, please do be kind to yourselves and come back to this
episode at a later date.
Zoe Amar: It was really refreshing to have an open and
honest conversation about grief and for Nikki to share that
experience with us. And what was a very difficult time for the
Fundraising Everywhere team as they worked through the illness
and death of a close friend and colleague, Mandy Hine-Conway.
It's really powerful stuff. And we are so grateful to Nikki for
exploring this topic with us.
Paul Thomas: And before we share that conversation with Nikki,
Zoe there are a couple of AI focus stories you wanted to
share and discuss this week.
Zoe Amar: Absolutely. So we're recording this on Monday, the
eighth of April. And some of our listeners might have heard on
the news today that Microsoft is opening up a new AI hub in
London, at its Paddington office, which some people might
have have been to. And really one of the big stories behind
that story is about Microsoft's commitment to the UK tech
sector, and also how they have recently committed a really
significant amount of money 2.5 billion. So they expanded
datacenter infrastructure, and also, I believe, a really
significant amount of money to training their staff as well. So
again, this is a clear move by one of the key tech companies
who's really driving a lot of the change and innovation in
this space, about the need to have a UK presence, and also to
recruit from the AI talent pool in the UK. So it's exciting
stuff.
Paul Thomas: Yeah, one of the things I said to you when you
shared the story was that there is a there's always going to be
a consolidation isn't there at this point where lots of
innovation, lots of smaller organisations come together. And
I think this is a real indication from Microsoft that
they understand they understand the sector, they understand the
world that they're living in. And they are bringing those
experts together and making a huge investment here. I do hope
it doesn't swallow some of the smaller, more sort of innovative
firms that have started this quiet revolution in the UK, I
worked with one associated with a Scottish university for a
while, a few years back, and there's some really, really good
thinking good people in this space. So hopefully, this is the
the big investment that the sector needs. And hopefully we
don't see too many smaller firms that are doing really
interesting stuff fall by the wayside. But it sounds like a
good deal to me.
Zoe Amar: Yeah, so interesting one, isn't it. And I think it
also shows that things are moving very quickly in the AI
space. And the companies who are working in this area are making
some big moves to indicate what their plans are going to be. So
it'll be very exciting to see what they do with the AI hub,
and also what the impact is on the charity sector as well.
Paul Thomas: Yeah. And I think like everything that Microsoft
do, it gets to the point where the it's all about consumer AI
and I think it will be a really big shift as soon as Microsoft
get involved in this sort of thing it's at the point where
consumers have it in their hands and we've seen this year with
the launch of co pilot that everyone is trying it out now
and everyone is getting involved. So it's a real sense
of AI, properly arriving. And I know we've been talking about it
for two or three years, but with this investment and making the
UK or bringing the UK into the centre of it, it really does put
a marker in the sand.
Zoe Amar: 100%. Yeah, absolutely. So will be very
exciting to see what the next steps on that are. And we'd love
to hear what our listeners think of this issue as well, and what
some of the consequences will be for them too. And I liked to
your point about how there's probably going to be quite a lot
of movement in this space. I mean, I think there's such a
rush now to get the right talent that I would expect there to be
quite a lot of merger and acquisition activity, continuing
merger and acquisition activity on any company operating in this
area. So yeah, I think it will be exciting to see what impact
that has on some of the companies who are operating in
developing all these tools that we're all beginning to use more
of every day.
Paul Thomas: Yeah, been away for a week and I've had clients
emailing me about using AI for content generation, and things
like that, whilst I've been away. So yeah, it's coming
really into the consciousness of nearly every organisation as I
said as soon as it hits, Microsoft Teams, and everyone's
getting to experiment and play with it every day. So it's going
to become more and more interesting. I think the
investment as well into training looked like it was wider than
just Microsoft employees as well. So I think they are making
a real investment into AI skills across the board in UK business
and industry. So yeah, really, really interesting. I guess
watch this space in AI corner. AI alcove we should have as part
of the beginning of this podcast.
Zoe Amar: But I'm sure AI could design me a very nice alcove.
There are certainly a few Facebook groups I'm in at the
moment around house renovations. And AI has been put to good use
there by people who are doing some interior design. So I'm
sure it could design us a lovely alcove, possibly with a plant in
it.
Paul Thomas: Talking of applications of AI, you also
included a link to a music story.
Zoe Amar: Yes, obviously, you know, I included this because I
know that you like me are a big music fan. And we're actually
off to a gig together on Wednesday evening. But ahead of
that some people some of our listeners might have seen that
there's been a big music industry story about AI over the
last few days. So Billie Eilish and Nicki Minaj have signed up
amongst two hundred other artists to call for tech
companies to stop training AI music generation tools on some
of the work that's been created by songwriters and artists. And
it was interesting when I sent this story over to you this
morning Paul you've mentioned that there was someone that
you'd been following for a few years on Twitter who had some
really interesting thoughts on this. So would you be able to
say a bit more about that?
Paul Thomas: Yeah, yeah. So there's an artist called Holly
Yeah definitely. And also, I was thinking when I was reading the
Herndon. I think she's a US based artist, and for the last
for a good few years. So I think I started following her about
five or six years ago. And she's consistently used AI in her
music. So she's used AI to create but also as a writing
partner. So the way that she sees it is very much as creating
a sort of a separate entity that she can work with and bounce
ideas off of. She's even named it but she's created this this
sort of AI that then she works with, is a working partner just
in the way that you know, Lennon and McCartney might have worked
together to write songs, but she's writing with the AI. And I
think the challenge that I put back to you is yeah, I can, I
can absolutely see where the industry is coming from. We'll
share a link to a thread that Holly Herndon has shared, I'm
not saying she's the definitive voice in this, by the way, but
she has some really thoughtful stuff around the role of AI in
our generally, and how art and artists should be working with
it and embracing it. She's not sort of going all in on either
side of the argument. I think she's trying to broaden it out
somewhat. So I think that the basic argument is that, you
know, we need to be protective of art and artists and AI could
encroach into that space. And I think her argument is very much
work alongside it. Yes, we need to be careful. We need to be
mindful. But she doesn't see, you know, AI sentience as being
the biggest the bigger challenge. She sees the
challenges, human beings actually working alongside and
article, how would it be enforced?
with AI to augment what they're able to do. So it's a really
I don't know. I don't know. And how can you tell? I mean, I
interesting counterpoint not counterpoint, an interesting
challenge to this story, I think.
listened to I listen, obviously, we're podcasters, we listen to a
lot of podcasts and listened to Kermode and Mayo. And their
producers are constantly threatening them with replacing
them with AI. And one, one episode, they actually did an AI
introduction. So it wasn't Mark and Simon. It was an AI Mark and
Simon. And it did sound slightly off, but I didn't question it at
all, until they brought up the fact that that was an AI version
of them and an AI produced intro to the programme. It did sign
slightly off, as I said, there was a nuance to it that wasn't
quite, you could tell. But it had to be pointed out to you
once you knew it was there, then it was obvious. But the point
is, if they can replicate voices that easily and replicate words,
and put words into people's mouths that easily, then you
know, the future of you and I doing this podcast is entirely
in question. We could just programme the AI to produce
episodes for us to say discuss these topics. It's I mean, it's
at the point where, yeah, how do they police it? How do...
everything would have to come with a sort of a stamp of
authority, I guess a sort of a...Yeah, this is genuine.
Zoe Amar: Like a watermark or something?
Paul Thomas: A digital watermark yeah.
Zoe Amar: Interesting. Interesting.
Paul Thomas: It would be interesting. I think what we
probably need are safe words and safe questions. So you know, I
know it's you. And you know, it's me. And the listeners know,
it's you and me, because we know the answer to specific questions
that AI just couldn't possibly know the answer to.
Zoe Amar: How do I know I'm not talking to AI now Paul, you
might still be on a beach in France. And you've delegated
this to your AI to come and talk to me.
Paul Thomas: I'd like to think that nobody can see the
pictures. But I'd like to think that AI would have a nice,
slightly neater hair at the moment and look more
presentable, that an AI version of myself would be. Yeah,
wouldn't make the same stumbles and mistakes that we make, would
they, they'd just carry on regardless and push through.
Zoe Amar: Oh, good stuff. Good stuff. Well, it's it's still us,
both of us non AI versions for now. And on that note, we should
move on to our interview with Nikki Bell. And just to remind
people again, please do remember, this conversation
covers the topic of illness, specifically cancer, death and
grieving. So please do take care from this point on. And please
do stay tuned for a couple of extra questions and answers at
the end of this discussion that we wanted to include, but felt
like they needed to be presented separately from the main
discussion.
We are super excited to have Nikki Bell on Starts at the Top
today. Nikki has worked with charities for over 13 years and
is a fundraiser turned founder, now leading the fully remote
Fundraising Everywhere team. From a failed first foray into
leadership over a decade ago Nikki now works in a team of
seven and has an equity first approach. In the past five
years, she has navigated nearly every possible leadership
challenge, including the illness and loss of a team member,
unexpected bills causing financial crisis and supporting
team members to step back to focus on their personal lives
for mental health or having their first baby. Nikki Bell
welcome to Starts at the Top. We're huge fans of Fundraising
Everywhere. And it's a joy to have you here.
Nikki Bell: Oh thank you so much for having me Zoe. And likewise
to you and everything that you that you do.
Zoe Amar: Well that's very kind. We're so lucky to have this time
with you today to talk a bit about your story. So I wanted to
begin by just digging into your bio a bit more. And, Paul, I
know there was a question you wanted to ask about leadership
and Nikki's journey, so go for it.
Paul Thomas: Well, I think within the bio, if you if you
say something like a failed first foray into leadership, I
think we probably need to explore that a little bit. And I
just thought it'd be useful for our listeners to hear that, you
know, it's no bed of roses, this leadership path and can actually
sometimes learning from past experience can can make things
better the second time around. So can you tell us a bit more
about that?
Nikki Bell: Absolutely. So I started in the charity sector,
about 13 years ago, and was very quickly promoted into a
management position after six months. So if you can imagine
being fresh to a sector, and now leading a team in an area that I
didn't have any clue about it was face to face fundraising and
all of a sudden I had like these face to face and individual
given fundraisers. And to talk about it from a leadership point
of view I was not the best person to lead that team. I
definitely didn't give my best example of leadership. I was
copying the kind of approaches from what I'd seen other people
do, I wasn't thinking about the way that I wanted to lead a
team. And that on top of the concerns that I had about, like,
you know, not knowing how to do the job itself, that got pushed
out into my team. And I wasn't supportive, I definitely didn't
know how to look after people and give them structure. And it
didn't actually know how to do the job. So I wasn't able to
then help people to do it. And I wasn't in that job for very
long, I think I very quickly realised that this wasn't the
best for me. And it definitely wasn't the best for the people
that were in the team. And thankfully, it was a short team.
So hopefully, I didn't put people off a career for life. So
I took a step back and went back into a fundraiser role. And it
was 100% the best thing for me at that time, and the next time
that I led a team was you know, Fundraiser Everywhere what like
eight nine ten years later, obviously took that learning
from that time, the all of the time that I had had in between
to think about myself and who I was as a human and a leader. And
I'd like to think that I'm in a much better position to, to lead
people now and do it more confidently and without
insecurities and with a lot more knowledge about what it is to to
lead people and take them with you.
Zoe Amar: And I think it's so great you're sharing that
because when you make that first step into management and leading
it can feel like quite a scary thing, can't it? I remember
making that transition myself. And how hard that was. And one
of the things that made it hard was thinking about, Oh, gosh,
everyone gets this, you know, people can start leading
straightaway, they instinctively know how to do it. But it's not
really like that is it? You have to learn how to do it leaders
and managers are not fully formed from day one, are they?
Nikki Bell: Absolutely, I was really young at the time I
hadn't I mean, this isn't, you know, outsourcing the blame, but
I hadn't had any kind of example of what like great leadership
looked at at that time, I was quite fresh in my career, I'd
come from organisations where I'd actually been bullied, you
know, from from from leadership and people that I worked with,
and I just didn't know how to look, look after people, you
know, when I was so focused on just doing like my own job, I
wasn't there for the for the people around me, they didn't
have that support, and they didn't have that guidance, and I
retreated into myself. And that's 100% not the way to go
for things if you're trying to inspire people, if you're trying
to support them, and encourage them. So I definitely learned a
lot from that. And, you know, I have seen and spoke to those
people since and there's no hard feelings on that from from
either side, I think there's an understanding that we were just
all in positions where we weren't meant to be there. And
that obviously comes from a failure of my own as well of
going for that promotion, just because I thought it was like
the next thing that I that I had to do. But actually, you know,
taking that step back and going, let's start again, let's get
this foundation right, let's actually take the steps in the
direction that I want to go in not where I think I should be
going. And I'm glad I did that quite quickly, early on in my
career, rather than, you know, making those mistakes now, when
I've got a much larger team, much bigger impact, and you
know, it would have a much bigger outcome for for many
people.
Zoe Amar: Absolutely. And one of the reasons why we were so keen
to have you on is because I've always admired your very open
and generous style of leadership. And even when I was
reading your bio this morning, I was thinking this is such a
unique bio, because so much of it is about other people and how
you support other people rather than saying so did X, Y, and Z
wonderful things. So can you tell us a bit more about the
present day, then? Can you describe the story so far with
Fundraising Everywhere for anyone that doesn't know it.
Nikki Bell: So in 2019, Simon and I, who is the co-founder of
Fundraising Everywhere, we were consultants at the time for
charities, and we were actively involved in the conference
circuit. So speaking at them, organising them bringing people
together, there was one experience I'm sure, Julian from
Edinburgh Dog & Cat Home loves to talk about where we did a
workshop in a sewage plant. So you know, we were getting around
a bit and doing a bit of a bit of training. And we realised
that when we were in these spaces that there was quite a
lot of people weren't there, you know, they were excluded from
these learning networking opportunities so we had to talk
about what we could do to change that. And that's where
Fundraising Everywhere came from. Originally, the idea was
that we would do a once a year virtual conference, pulling
together all of these people and networks that we'd built from
around the world. And we'd bring them to fundraisers everywhere,
you know, through the screens at home and in their laptops. And
we really quickly realised after that first one, I think it was
November 2019, that there was there was more ado people needed
support. And of course we all remember what happened in March
2020. So things snowballed from that point. And this kind of
side project that Simon and I had come up with quickly
snowballed into a lot of work that we didn't have capacity to
do for ourselves, you know, I was atempting to homeschool my
son told me I was the worst teacher he'd ever had so I was
trying to like homeschool and do my consultancy and do
Fundraising Everywhere at the same time, so we decided, right,
okay, well, let's start to build a team around us. And long story
short over the past, what five years, it's gone from me and
Simon to now having, you know, the team of seven that we have
fully remote team. We've got people in France, Ireland, based
around the UK, and we have some freelancers that work with us as
well. A lot of the challenges that have come from that is we
never actually set out to grow a business and build a team. But
on the flip side, I actually think that that's a good thing,
because we haven't had to think about it too hard and too much.
We've just actually had to like act in the moment. But we've
always gone from if we were working somewhere, like what
would be the absolute best situation and scenario that we
could build, and then give that to other people. So you know,
when you touched on the intro, with the various challenges that
we've that we've had to make, from a leadership point of view,
before we've even gone to your legal people, like you, finance
people, me and Simon have always chatted and been like, what's
the right thing to do? Like, what is this next step? And then
can we actually make that happen? And that's been so free.
And I think us being in control of things has allowed us to grow
something that's just felt so right, because we haven't had
like these expectations, these pressures from these huge
budgets and existing ways of working or like existing plans.
And that can be quite scary. But it also gives so much freedom
and for us as well.
Paul Thomas: It is certainly quite frightening that that's,
you don't hear that that often, everything we do is based around
the right thing to do. That's so refreshing.
Nikki Bell: Thanks. Do you know what though we've always said as
well, though, that it shouldn't be the exception, like that
should be the norm. And we've always been open to talking to
people and saying how we did it. And one of the frustrating
things that we found as business owners, is when you go to your
legal people or your finance people, they're like, Oh, this
is what you can do to get around this and do that. And we're
like, but we don't want to do that, like we want to. And then
we've had to like rewrite things and create new contracts and
create new ways of working to actually treat people nicely if
we're going to, you know, use quite simple terms on it. And it
has been so interesting, like to navigate like the world of
business in just a way that it's like, well, let's just do things
without thinking about like the profit part of it, or, like how
we can get like the most out of it. So yeah, it's been it's been
interesting.
Zoe Amar: Yeah, it's fascinating. I mean, as you were
talking about, like Paul was saying, I was thinking about how
very rarely does one hear that as a metric of success. I mean,
particularly in the startup world, it's often about, I want
to get to this level of profitability and this level of
profitability and this amount of external investment. But I love
the fact that your business is centred on well are we doing the
right thing? Does it feel right? Are we treating people right?
And that should be at the heart of all businesses really
shouldn't it?
Nikki Bell: Yeah, definitely. And I can see and understand
though, how other places have to operate in different in
different settings. And in places like we, if we, if we
look at it simply like we are an online platform that delivers
like virtual conferences and webinars, so we can afford that
like flexibility. And I understand where some places
might have to have, you know, firmer boundaries, because maybe
the outcome of things going wrong for them is a lot more
catastrophic for us. So I do understand that we have with the
freedom that we have, it does make it easier for it. But it's
not impossible to bring elements of what we do through into other
places. You know, if you think about a charity leader, they
have so much like responsibility on them, like not just from a
team and income point of view, but like a brand and reputation.
And there's so many other layers to it. So you know, we do have
that privilege of just having a bit more like creativity and
freedom with it. But yeah, it doesn't make it impossible for
other people. And you know, even in trying our best and always
doing the right thing doesn't always mean that we get it right
for all people as well, which has been a very interesting
learning and an understanding for me over the past few years, especially.
Zoe Amar: So it would be great to talk about that past year
because one of the reasons why this interview came about as
well as obviously, knowing you well as I do, as I think you've
put up this brilliant LinkedIn post which was about how you
grew without trying to grow last year, which I guess lines up
with some of the things you've said, so can you tell us more
about that journey?
Nikki Bell: Yes. So 2022 was a really hard year for Fundraising
Everywhere. So it was the first year that things went back to
normal inverted commas for for for anyone listening to this
audio only, you know, in person stuff came back, we were unsure
about, you know, where the future of Fundraising Everywhere
was going and from a financial perspective, we really struggled
and there was many months that me and Simon, the team were fine
because we made it so but there was like quite a lot of months
that me and Simon like never got paid. So when we went into 2023,
we were in a much more stable position, things started to even
out you know, we've improved the relationships that we were
growing across the sector. And that in turn, like meant more
income, we had a team at full capacity. And we were like,
right 2023 is the year we're gonna smash it, we're gonna go
international like this is going to be amazing. And then very
quickly, in the first couple of months, we had, you know, those
three big pieces of news. So my co-founder had to step back to
prioritise his personal mental health, we had the wonderful
news that someone in the team was leaving to have their first
baby, and she is back now after maternity leave. But the biggest
one was around Mandy, who was and just, you know, for a
trigger warning for anyone listening that I am about to
touch on life long illnesses and cancer. And she was diagnosed
with pancreatic cancer. And, and obviously, you know, we know the
outcomes of that aren't aren't great. So we were just like,
right, let's scrap this. Like the the plan, obviously, that we
that we had to grow, and we just stripped it right back. And we
were like, if we don't do anything new this year, if we
don't create extra like, stresses and requirements on the
team, what is the absolute minimum that we can kind of
bring in to make sure that we can still push out what we've
promised to people and make it good quality. And we're very
much focused on like, what can we do internally to improve
processes, improve service, and just really think about, like,
what our values and our approaches is going to be. So we
went from this big plans to, you know, I can't even remember what
like the growth plans were to, right, actually, we're going to
bring this back, cut it again, under to what we expected and
just go for, like sheer maintenance. And it was really
interesting, because when we reviewed the finances for for
2023, we actually ended up with with growth anyway. And it was,
you know, scary and terrifying to go from this year of, you
know, financial difficulty. I think that was in the intro as
well, the the unexpected bills to go on. Right? Okay, well,
we're not actually going to grow not only that, we're going to
like, reduce the targets and where we're going. But it was
just so amazing to see that growth anyway that came from I
just, you know, from the sheer work and talent in the team,
from the support of the sector, from the people that we work
with. And most importantly, it really showed us like, where we
should be invested in our efforts, which is in those
relationships, it's in those people and in collaborating with
those people that have the same approach and values as us. And
it's about like the team, I think that really gave them a
lot of, like confidence and reassurance that they were
working in the right place. Because in when the times got
really hard and stretch we weren't like right, okay, three
people are out. So now you have like, three peoples extra work.
It was like, no, we strip this back and, and that I took on
more all of that work really that that came through from from
those people, probably not the best approach, I probably should
have brought someone in to cover some of that. But yeah, there
was other things to focus on at the time. And this year, touch
wood, crickey and I said it last year, as well. But this year is
is going to be is going to be a great year for us.
Zoe Amar: And I can really hear how much you've done during that
year to make everything stay on track to grow to look after the
team. And we also know as a founder how that takes a certain
amount of energy. How did you keep going through that time?
Nikki Bell: So a lot of the times Zoe, I didn't I actually
found it, I feel quite emotional now like talking about it. It
was one of the well, it was probably the hardest year that
I've had as a founder, as a human. Because even when you're
trying to do everything right and approach everything, you
know, the way there's always that like underlying worry of,
you know, am I getting this right? Am I doing the right
thing? Like am I am I doing enough so genuinely, I don't I
don't think I did. And obviously there's probably still like an
element there. Excuse me that that still affects me. I spent a
lot of effort and time in like my personal relationships and
the relationships that I'd built around me for for people to
support. I spent a lot of time in the sea just getting out and
running and screaming into the void as often as I could and the
situation with Mandy like taught me a lot as well around the
things that are important, which is you know how to make the
world around me a better place how to make the relationships
that I'm connected with in a much better position. And how do
I live a life where at the end of it or on the end of you know,
if my time with Fundraising Everywhere that I'm genuinely
proud of what I do. So quite a lot of you know timeout self
reflection, and just focusing on what's important got me through
that time, but it was many moments where where I definitely
struggled.
Zoe Amar: Well firstly, thank you for being so open about such
a challenging year and secondly, goodness me well done for
getting through it because that really is multiple challenges
coming from all angles isn't it? I mean, anyone who's ever run a
business, which Paul and I obviously both do, that's
everything everywhere, isn't it, you've got the financial
challenges, you've got the challenge of your co founder
needing a bit of time away, you've got the challenge of
losing a team member, which is huge. And when we last spoke, we
talked about how that had also happened in our business not so
long ago. And then also you've got the, the extra burden of of
looking after the team, which is you're saying earlier is
absolutely the right thing to do in your biggest job as a leader
during a situation like that. But that's hard as well, isn't
it when you also need a bit of support as well, very
understandably.
Nikki Bell: Yeah, and I should mention as well, you know, there
Zoe Amar: And that's such an important skill, isn't it. And
were many people that got me through that that time. You
that's what I've always admired about you Nikki because because
know, friends, there's, there's people that I work with, in the
sector, mentors, coaches, just even people like checking in and
you and Simon have got this really strong focus on doing the
just offering like, a cup of tea, like all of that got got me
through the moments where, you know, it was a bit sketchy with
the whole payment thing, there was friends that I'd made in the
sector that chucked us like an extra bit of work, because I
could do that on the side too, to keep the Fundraising
Everywhere thing going. So there was a lot of people around me as
well that were there in those moments that showed up. And I
think that in connection and making sure that you're giving
back to people in those times where you're able to and just
genuinely asking for help in the moments where you need it, that
right thing and treating people right because of that there is a
was a huge thing to get us through as well. So I didn't do
it alone, it was definitely people that pulled us up and
pulled us through when I needed it. And investing in in those
circles and relationships is something I'll definitely,
definitely keep doing.
lot of respect and goodwill towards you both in the sector.
And that's why people have given you that work, because they
admire what you do, they know the difference that you make.
And because you really look after everyone around you. So
that's that's really, that's really good that your friends
and colleagues were able to help out because you will have made
10 times that difference towards them previously.
Nikki Bell: Thank you, that's really nice to hear when when
you work in a digital business, and you are quite removed from
quite a lot of the work that you're doing a lot of the time,
it's it's easy to forget that, you know, we wonder if you're if
you're doing enough, or you know if it's having the right impact.
So that is lovely to hear. And yeah, genuinely appreciate like
every person that's been there for us, you know, since day one,
yourself included. So thank you.
Zoe Amar: Oh thank you. So I know when we spoke a few weeks
ago, you know, we touched on this subject, and we kind of
bonded again over the experience that you've been through and our
experiences as a team when we lost Brad about 18 months ago
now. Are you able to say I mean, obviously, depending on what
you're comfortable to talk about, there's no pressure at
all. But is there anything that you can share about your
experience of dealing with the incredibly sad loss of of Mandy?
Nikki Bell: Yeah it's interesting, because since then,
I've heard a few stories from from leaders in the sector
through the work I do with like the Pizza for Losers workshops,
where we, where we discuss vulnerability and learning from
times that we got wrong. And there was a couple of instances
where someone has had a member of their team that has been
diagnosed and they've lost them and they've not felt like
they've approached that situation in in the right way,
or the right way for them or, or the situation that they're in
because they're all very different depending on the
person that you're that you're working with. So I share this
with the intention of helping people that find themselves in
that situation, because when we got the diagnosis and the update
from from Mandy, the first thing that I did was turn to the
internet, like how do you look after an employee that's that's
been diagnosed with this and Macmillan have some fantastic
resources. But I found that quite a lot of the resources
that are out there are transactional. It's like, what
do you do to keep your business running? Or like, what do you do
for this? And it was like, well, what do we do like the other
way? So one of the biggest things I would say to anyone
that goes through that situation, and I hope no one
ever has to is just always keep that space there for that
person. One of the biggest things that I realised and
understood very early on that for Mandy, Fundraising
Everywhere and her work and her identity as a person and having
that purpose, having a place for her to come and work was so
important. And obviously that's for someone running a business,
I can see why they can be like a conflict of that because if the
person isn't there or able to work, then that has a negative
impact. But you just you have to make it work. You have to keep
that space there for that person. And you have to support
them to be able to contribute at times that's that's right for
them because I think for her in her hardest moments, this is
where she wanted to be to show that she could still do it and
show you know that there was a reason to stick in and be here.
As it happened at the time, the FSC, the FSI sorry, had sadly
shut down and Chipego and was kind of looking for work and she
was their membership person from there. So she did come in and
and support us on a temporary freelance basis but Mandy's role
was always kept open. For Chipego we kept a completely
separate and more junior job title so that Mandy always knew
that there was space here for her and she just dropped back in
and out when when she when she needed it. And I remember her
saying that that was something that she'd felt was that when
she had gone into have like her treatments, and she was speaking
to other people that they didn't have that, but for us, it felt
like the bare minimum. And yeah, it, it was a tough thing to look
at. But it kind of went in line with those plans that we'd had
already to just kind of step back, pull the goals back a
little bit and make it work. And I remember saying to Simon, if
Fundraising Everywhere goes under because we've used the
freedom and capacity that we have to make someone's like
final months on Earth, like the best that it can possibly be,
then I'm completely fine with that. Like, if that's what that
if that's what takes us out. And as it happens, that isn't what
happened anyway. But I it definitely yeah, it kind of made
me feel a bit more centred and calm, that we've that we've done
the right thing in that moment from the feedback we've had from
Mandy and her family, when we'd gone down for the for the for
the service. And you still wonder, do you, don't you like
could I have done more? Was there anything that I could have
done differently? And perhaps there would have been. But yeah,
it's definitely showing me what's what's important when it
comes to, to work business and everything else that goes with it.
Zoe Amar: It completely changes you, grief, doesn't it? That's
my big learning from this experience. And also, other
experiences of loss I've been through previously, you're not
the same person on the other side of it as you were going in.
Nikki Bell: And yeah I'm sorry to hear about Brad and your loss
as well. Because yeah, it's, it's, I'm not sure what I
expected. Because we knew what the outcome was gonna be, you
know, from from from quite early on, and you kind of prepare for
it, but then you kind of not preparing for it as well,
because you kind of don't want to accept it, and you don't want
to make it real. But it definitely hit us harder than
than what I thought like, I for at least two or three weeks was
just useless, couldn't do anything that I had to pull out
quite a lot of commitments, and I put myself in for I'd spent a
lot of time in bed and and not able to contribute much. But it
was helpful. It wasn't helpful for the team. But it was, it was
kind of supporting for the team because we all gave ourselves
that permission, we actually put some comms out at the time
saying like, we'll go on, we're going dark for a bit like we're
going to ground for a bit like the next two weeks, we're just
we're not going to be around and we just appreciate your patience
and support. And that was to the team as well. It was like look
like, here's this kind of grieving period. But there isn't
like a period, obviously, it continues. But it did allow us
all to just like not have that distraction of work to really
like sit with our feelings and talk with each other about what
we needed and what we wanted to do next. And I think it helped
us like ease back into coming back and starting to make
positive differences. And we were talking about how what can
we do now to celebrate Mandy? And that's where the Mandy
Training Fund had came from. And we did you know, tribute notices
at the time as well. And yeah, I think just kind of having that,
that period to just really feel and accept and admit that that
that we're feeling it really helped us move move forward
afterwards. But yeah, we still, you know, we still feel it now
we still talk about her and when we have our get togethers, you
know, there's still like a place for her there and we include
her. So you know, it does still bubble up. But I think we're
getting better at it kind of getting through those emotions
as they happen now.
Zoe Amar: I think that permission you gave your team to
grieve is one of the best things you could that's the best thing,
the only thing you could have done in in that situation, I
think is so important one of the my big learnings from you know,
various losses that I have been through. So the way the
Victorians grieve, do you know, the the wearing of the black and
having those visible signals, I'm going through this, this big
thing that's happening is is a really important thing too.
Because you're creating that space, you're giving yourself
that permission to say, I'm not the person I was beforehand and
I need this space to feel these feelings. And one of my regrets
from that, that time was I didn't take any time off. And I
should have and you did absolutely the right thing with
your team you know giving yourself the time whilst also
giving them the time and space away because it's a huge thing
to process. And I don't think the modern workspace is really
set up for for grieving. I mean, it's in a company like yours,
where you've done so much to work on making people feel that
they belong. You've set the foundation for that absolutely
beautifully. I wonder whether in the modern workplace, you know,
we really talk about death in the way that is, is healthy, and
we should do.
Nikki Bell: I mean, you did what you felt was right in that
moment, as well. And no one prepares you for it, you know,
that it's not in the setting up of business like handbook like
this is how you deal with it for you, that was right for you in
that moment. So like, yeah, I hope that you kind of have that
kindness for yourself as well of being like you did what you had
to do. For the wider like, capitalist world that is focused
on like money and speed and growth. No, I don't think that
there is a space for, for death and, or like death acceptance,
and accepting how people feel or even like vulnerability and
feelings like those words aren't common like in workspaces. And
it's something that I've really had to work on over the past few
years, as well of, how do I be, like more vulnerable and open
about how I'm feeling and helping to articulate those in a
much better way, because it does create better change, it does
break down a lot of barriers, and it does remove some of the
sticking points that I've definitely seen in places of
work where those walls and expectations is still up. I'm
not sure what the answer is, I think, you know, we could talk
about policies, and we can talk about structures. But I actually
think that every situation, especially when, especially when
you are dealing with the loss of a friend or a colleague, every
situation is so personal. And even if we'd had something
written down about, like, how do we deal with this, you can't
follow that you just have to kind of go off paper and just be
like the game, what is the right thing to do? So yeah, it's, it's
a very unique experience that I hope no one ever has to go
through. But we will obviously all experience it in different
parts of our life as well. And I think that's where I found it
quite tough. I've been privileged not to have lost
anyone in my personal life for a very long time. So all of these
things kind of got thrown up and, and had to sort them out.
Not just for myself, but I guess like, in front of the sector,
but also like, whilst being strong for my team as well. And
it was a very, very challenging situation, but also has taught
me so much about myself and where I'm going and where like I
want my soul to be.
Zoe Amar: And that's the weird silver lining that could come
out of a situation like this. Because as you describe that
journey, and what you've been through and the team have been
through, I can see how this is a extra strength in some ways, if
I can put it that way that you've developed as a leader,
because you've, you've really learned how to look after your
team during a situation like this.
Nikki Bell: Yeah, I can, I can see that. And again, I hope that
it gives them assurances that in those tough moments, we'll make
the right decisions. That's for them both as individuals and as
a collective. In terms of leading an organisation leading
people, it's definitely like, given us a lot more freedom. I
mean, I don't know if people swear on you on your podcast
but, do they? Can we say the F word?
Zoe Amar: For you, Nikki, we're gonna give you special
dispensation go for it.
Nikki Bell: You can bleep it out. It has genuinely helped me
be like do you know what fuck it like this, if this is the right
thing to do, or if this is not working, and we have to let it
go. Or if this isn't working out the way that I wanted to, or
even on days where people just aren't feeling it, it is just
like, you know, what, if there's anything that we've learned from
that is that life is short, like you do just need to spend your
time with the people in the spaces and in the places that
are genuinely making a difference that make you feel
fulfilled. So what can we do as an organisation to create that
for other people? And yeah, that's definitely been a silver
lining that's come out of it for me.
Zoe Amar: And what a beautiful way.
Paul Thomas: I was just saying I'm working with someone at the
moment, who's well, I didn't have to because my mum was
there. But my we lost my dad to vascular dementia a couple of
years ago, and I'm working with someone at the moment who's
going through exactly the same same, same illness with both
their parents and one of the parents died before before
Christmas. And I think the the tough thing there is that she
had to leave her work in order to do that. And now we're giving
a bit of a route back in to say, well, you know, yeah, come and
dip your toe in, see how you go, but always on the proviso that
any moment that might have to come to an end because she's
going to have to deal with the same with the other, the other
parent. And I think that's probably something that leaders
are going to have to deal with more and more because as you
said, things were signalled. You know, you you get a diagnosis
and you know which way it's going and you kind of you learn
to live with that grief before the event has even happened. I
think you know, I think I gave myself a day, maybe a long
weekend when my dad finally died, because we've done all the
the grieving already, or a lot of it, not all of the grieving,
but we've done a lot of it already, because the person we
knew wasn't there anymore. So it's really tough, I think for
leaders to, to go through that and experience it, but also come
out the other side and know how to deal with it better.
Nikki Bell: And, you know, that is, yeah, I'm really sad that's
sad to hear to hear that as well, that must be a horrible
situation for that person. And you'd have gone through and I'm
really sorry about that. And it proves I think that, that part
of it's difficult to have like a one approach fits everything for
everyone. So I think if we always just come if you just
have like a human policy of like, how would we want this
person to feel supported? And what would we want to do to give
them this kind of place where they can come back to or where
they know that they can talk about other than know that
they're looked after. But then every case will have to be
individual because it's, you know, that impact of someone and
their parents and for yourself. Like that's going to be
completely different from somebody else that's, you know,
lost someone suddenly, and you know, there's so many like
factors of it, isn't there? And, yeah, it's something that we're
not like prepared for, that we're not supported through. But
hopefully, like people talking about it more, we can kind of
share some of that and find people that can that can help.
But yeah, it's it happens to us all every day doesn't it, it's
somewhere like whether it is and when we work with like whether
it's a friend or family member. So yeah, it's really interesting
now to think about it that there was such a lack of, I guess,
like resource out there to help in those moments.
Zoe Amar: Yeah. And I know what you mean, because I think that
there's a lot of stuff that deals with the immediate
practicalities. So things like how much bereavement leave to
people get and you know how to sort of cope with some of the
logistics of the situation as it were in the workplace. But
there's less of the the ongoing stuff. And I think one of the
big things I've learned and been interested to know what you may
think of this is that it really is a work in progress, isn't it?
Bereavement is one of those things where you can be fine for
a few weeks, and then you suddenly want to start crying in
the middle of a meeting because you remember, that person's like
favourite cheese, something very random like that. And how it's,
it's then quite quite hard to say, well, I'm sorry, I need a
bit of space for that, or, or just to sort of create the
opportunity to talk about that in a way that feels safe to be
vulnerable. So yeah, I think you're right, there's there's
not a lot of support out there for that ongoing support that
people may need.
Nikki Bell: And to flag as well. I mean, there's people with
pets, as well, like I've heard of this was one of the people
that was on our team last year, a previous place that she worked
at when she when she'd lost a pet, which is like a family
member, just that support that's there for that. And it's just
yes, it's we have to think about like loss in its entirety in
what it can mean to different people. And yeah, there's not
one one approach fits fits all.
Paul Thomas: Yeah, I think the anything that impacts on your
day to day, and just being open and honest about what it is, you
know, I've got other people that I work with just going through
sort of relatively simple illnesses, but illness in itself
is it's you're gonna have to take the day off, asking them to
do it, you know, despite the fact you're going to have to
perhaps take on more work and just giving them that space to
do what they need to do. I think it's just so important.
Nikki Bell: And for the person who's experiencing it, from my
understanding, and again, you know, speaking with people in
the in the failure workshops that have been running recently,
they are worried about their impact on other people, you
know, how it's going to affect them, like how it's going to
make them feel other than letting them down. So I think as
leaders, we have to proactively put these things in place and we
can't wait to be asked for stuff like we have to kind of go out
there have the conversations, find out what they need, involve
them in the conversations as well. Like, it might be tough,
it might be awkward, but like we have to, we have to make that
happen. Because again, like how we experience grief, how we
experience loss is going to be completely different to the to
the next person. So it does all come back to that conversation
that outreach like the actually trying to like make a difference
and pushing it forward. And everything else will have to
follow the side and I think we have to be okay with that.
Because it is going to happen. But again, you know, if you do
come through off the off the other side, because there will
be people there who will help to pick you up and carry you
through.
Zoe Amar: And what would you say to anyone who's right in the
middle of this at the moment who might have just recently lost a
colleague or a team member? What would your advice to them be?
Nikki Bell: Oh crickey, that's a hard one. First of all, I'm
I think that's great advice. And it's actually very life
really sorry that they've gone through this because it's weird
and hard as a work friend or a work connection, because there's
almost like this element of... basically my advice would be all
of this stuff that I'm about to say is completely normal. So if
you're like wondering, like, what on earth is going on like,
it's okay. So there's this like element of where is that
boundary? Am I overstepping? And, like, Am I doing enough?
And my advice when you're thinking about that is, as long
as that person knows that you're there, and you're holding space
for them, and you're just checking in with them at regular
intervals, even if you don't hear back. Like, that's, that's
enough. What else, what else? Oh, definitely, you know, speak
in support with the people that are around you to get that
support as well. Because you will be constantly thinking
about what you can do to help that person to help your team.
And often like you forget in yourself like, well, what are
what what do I need to bring that back up and like the energy
levels back up, and it's totally fine and necessary to get in
touch with people and say, I just need help on this moment.
And help might be something practical, like, Oh, can you do
this for me? Can you come for a cup of coffee? But help might
also just be like space and understand and then it's okay to
ask for that as well. And that feels really weird to say, I
can't do this for you right now. But can you wait, those are
those are two key things. And I guess my third bit of advice,
because I like to do things in threes are, as long as you are
coming from a position of I'm gonna say it again, like the the
affirming talking about this stuff isn't it in a in a weird
doing the right thing bit. That's all you can. That's all
you can do. And you can get advice, and you can get support,
and you can definitely soundboard it. But ultimately,
like if you try and do the right thing, then you're gonna get the
right outcome. And it's going to be really hard. And it's going
to uncover all of these like weird feelings and experiences
and emotions for you. And it's totally fine, to like, take
space and work through those yourselves. But you know, these
will all come out of the other side. And as long as you've
tried to kind of make the experience better for the person
who's actually going through it and experiencing the worst part
of it, then then that's, that's, that's enough for for for a leader.
kind of way, because it's, it's so hard. It's so hard
personally, it's so hard professionally. I think the way
that you are remembering Mandy is such a beautiful thing. Still
saying her name, still talking about the difference she made
still creating this, this wonderful way to honour all the
things that were important to her. And that is such a positive
thing to have come out of this really tough situation.
Yeah. And we get we have spoken to her husband and her family as
well and got permission as well at every point to make sure it's
okay. And shared things with them, you know, before we've
shared anything publicly. And it's been really nice for them
as well, we created this message board, which I've just
remembered now, after we shared the when when we shared the news
for people to post stuff. And it was so lovely for me to read,
like all of these messages from people that I hadn't heard about
or heard from before, like saying how she'd made a
difference. So we were able to like share that with with her
family. And you know, it's typical family crack for anyone
that works in the charity sector. They're like, what do
you do? Like, what's your job? So it was lovely to be able to
give this message board to her husband and say like, this is
this is what she did, like, this is the difference that it made.
And that's still there for them. So yeah, having their kind of
sign off on and approval and insight on stuff is been really
helpful as well, as, you know, we check in with them. And
again, it's kind of like, what's the right frequency, but I just
come from a place of like, if I think of it, and I feel like I
have that need to is it appropriate? And am I doing it
for me or the person but if it is like a genuine from a genuine
space of, you know, this is going to help them you know,
I'll check in and get in touch. So, so yes, it was still kind of
like learning this post experience process. But yeah,
it's obviously you know, you just have to remember that for
them and the family, it's going to be a much bigger impact for
them.
Zoe Amar: Of course, of course. Well thank you very much for
sharing your story, Nikki. That's amazing.
Paul Thomas: Thank you for sharing all that Nikki it's been
quite cathartic. I think for all of us today.
Nikki Bell: I find that the more we talk about it like the easier
it becomes and even if one person listens to this and they
and they help get the situation right for somebody then that
works for me. So thank you for having us on. And you know, it's
the Starts from the Top podcast and you know, exposing more
people and more leadership conversations is brilliant. So
just well done to everything that you do and as well to make
the conversations happen.
Zoe Amar: Oh, thank you Nikki.
And I've never done a podcast before, my first time so here
you go.
Oh, well we really appreciate you sharing your story and your
experiences this morning and that will have absolutely helped
people out there in ways that you'll never know. I mean, maybe
if people it has helped them, maybe they, they can reach out
to you. But I know it will definitely have made a
difference to people out there going through similar things. So
thank you so much for sharing where you're at and where you've
been.
Nikki Bell: Oh, thank you. Yes. And to say that if anyone is
going through it, then yeah, if I can help just reach out. My
email is nikki@fundraisingeverywhere.com
So happy to, happy to help.
Zoe Amar: Thank you to Nikki for joining us on the podcast. I'm
sure you'll agree that was a really moving, really open
interview. And we are so grateful to Nikki for being so
honest about her experiences with losing a colleague, and the
impact that the death of Mandy had on on their team. And it was
so refreshing, I thought to have a leader talking so openly about
grief in the workplace.
Paul Thomas: I've never had to deal with at the workplace.
Obviously, both you and I have dealt with grief quite recently,
in our private lives. But in the workplace, I've worked alongside
people that are going through quite severe critical illnesses.
And luckily for for me, and for them, come back from those. But
I mean, it was one of those conversations, wasn't it that
once we'd finished, it put an entirely different perspective
and focus on the day. And I can't remember much about what I
also had to do on that day, because it was just sort of
being taken out of it. And I think, again, an instance of
what we always say with this podcast that what we hope we're
doing is creating a space where people feel free to explore the
topics that they naturally want to explore. Yeah, we send
through some questions, but the questions sort of almost went
out of the window with this one, we just followed Nikki's
instinct. And yeah, the the honesty, and the the the very
real nature of the emotions that she shared with us. And she and
the team at Fundraising Everywhere went through, I
thought were really quite powerful, and will stay with me
for a long, long time.
Zoe Amar: Me too. And after that conversation with Nikki, I was
reflecting on how grief doesn't get talked about nearly enough
in the workplace, which obviously, was a theme, which
came through as part of our discussion. And actually, as
leaders, we, we need to be more comfortable talking about it and
modelling that behaviour so that the people we work with are
comfortable to talk about that and also to raise some of the
things that that they're going through as well. So thank you to
Nikki for teaching us that lesson.
Paul Thomas: Yeah. And it's in the news as well, a little bit
at the moment, there's quite a bit of discussion around pet
grief and stuff. Nikki mentioned it at the end of the
conversation. And I think what was my biggest takeaway is that
what we shouldn't do, as leaders or people in business is define
other people's grief for them, you know, we had a, we had an
incident very, very close to the death of my father where our cat
was run over and killed. And that because of the immediacy
of, of what happened, versus the long, drawn out battle my dad
had with dementia almost felt worse, in a way it was it was so
instant, and so shocking, and had such an impact on us as a
sort of a young family, that I don't think that can be
overlooked. But it was so hard that day, the same day, going
into work meetings and saying that I might be off my game
today, because this has happened. And almost seeing in
the eyes of some of the people that you're working with that.
What do you mean, it's just a cat? Well, you know, I'm not
going to define that grief for anyone. I think for us it was he
was more than a cat. He was a member of the family. And I
think that's the sort of thing that you just can't you can't
legislate for it. You shouldn't try to define for the people
that you're working with. So yeah, I think it was a really
interesting discussion, and one that I was just, you know, proud
to be a part of, actually, I think it was a really, really
good defining moment for this podcast. And yeah, thanks very
much to Nikki for sharing that.
Zoe Amar: 100% Thanks so much, Nikki, for a great discussion.
Very inspiring as ever.
Paul Thomas: As always, we really do appreciate that you've
listened all the way through to the end of the episode. So thank
you very much for that you can support the podcast by leaving
us a five star review wherever you listen to us. It really does
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heard today, do share us with a friend.
Zoe Amar: And thank you so much for listening today. And we'll
see you in a couple of weeks with a brand a new episode of
Starts at the Top.
Paul Thomas: See you then and bye for now.
Zoe Amar: Bye for now, see you soon.
Paul I think you've got a couple of quick questions to share,
haven't you from your Whatsapp group?
Paul Thomas: Yeah Richard Spear was asking about you started to
do in in real life conferences now. And what sort of led to
that development? Do you think hybrid can be an equal
experience to what you've been delivering so far.
Nikki Bell: So interestingly, we were meant to start the in
person stuff last year. But that was one of the projects that we
put on ice, when we approached things with a strip back
approach. And the idea with the in person events, they're not
conferences, they're more kind of just really quick
opportunities for people to come together and meet in person.
Because virtual as a medium is brilliant, it's a really fast,
effective way to reach many people with great content in one
go. But most importantly, that they can get it at a time that's
right for them, because we do have this huge on demand library
that people can dip into. But what we wanted was for an
opportunity to take some of those relationships that they've
built online, and actually bring like a human element into it
because the human element and connection is still important.
And even when we started fundraising everywhere in 2019,
we always said this is not to replace in person, it's to
enhance it. So we brought the IRL space together in real life
spaces together to just bring our community together in one
room for like an hour and a half, say thank you, you know,
give them a really quick session and just make them feel
inspired. And then send them on their way, with like a face to
the name of the people that they've gotten to know online.
So that's the intention behind them. But I think hybrid
conferences in any opportunity, where more content and resources
available to more people is is great. And we've always kind of
pushed for in person conferences to have that online element. But
yeah, our kind of main focus will always be online with these
like little pocket of satellites in real life spaces for people
to just come in, feel a bit buzzed for a bit and feel
connected, and then crack back on, you know.
Paul Thomas: So I've known you for 55 minutes, and I could have
probably preempted the answer to that question. Is the human
touch, isn't it?
Nikki Bell: Yeah that's the short, that's the short answer.
Paul Thomas: It's great, it's great. And then the second
question was from Rory Traynor at the Starlight Children's
Foundation, and he's asked for three things, but I'm just gonna
ask you for one because we're short on time. But if Nikki had
a magic wand, what one thing would they change about the
sector immediately?
Nikki Bell: Oh, Rory, that's a really good question. You
could've prep me with that one. One thing that I would change, I
mean, it comes down to it being a more equitable place. So you
know, we've talked a lot in this podcast around death and grief
and experiencing loss. But there's so many, well, not but
and, there's so many people on a daily basis that are
experiencing hardships on much different levels much more
impactful, you know, directed to them backgrounds. And I think if
there was one thing that I could change around that is to make it
a more equitable space and place for people to feel safe for
people to feel safe to be vulnerable, but most
importantly, to actually like, come to their job and enjoy that
and feel like they that they belong. And that's rooted in
lots of other things that might be connected to Rory's other
questions. But yeah, if there was one thing that I would
change in it, it would be around equity and all of the things
associated with that. And there's a lot of great people
having great conversations about change, and that which I'm sure
you've covered, and you'll cover on this podcast as well.