Nikki Bell  0:03  
How do I be like more vulnerable and open about how I'm feeling and helping to articulate those in a much better way, because it does create better change.

Zoe Amar  0:14  
Welcome to a brand new episode of Starts at the Top, our podcast about leading differently. I'm Zoe Amar.

Paul Thomas  0:21  
And I'm Paul Thomas. Our podcast exists to help leaders and their teams to understand what they need to do differently today to prepare for the world of tomorrow. We started Starts at the Top as a podcast about digital disruption. But we soon realised that leaders were telling us something more important and urgent about how traditional ways of leading had changed forever.

Zoe Amar  0:41  
We make it our mission to speak to leaders who are carving out new ways of leading, and we cover topics from emerging tech to inclusion to remote work to mental health and climate change. Basically, all the subjects that today's leaders need to be across in 2024.

Paul Thomas  0:57  
Our podcast isn't about shiny corporate case studies, it's about lessons learned and the progress made the hard way, and crucially how that can inspire others.

Zoe Amar  1:06  
And on today's episode, we speak to Nikki Bell, one of the co-founders of Fundraising Everywhere, the online community for professional development, peer support, and networking for fundraisers and future charity leaders.

Paul Thomas  1:20  
And this, I think, is a conversation that I will remember for a very, very long time. And so one that we do have to include a trigger warning for this episode centres on how leaders best response to death and grief in the workplace. So if you think these are topics that you would like to avoid at this time, please do be kind to yourselves and come back to this episode at a later date.

Zoe Amar  1:40  
It was really refreshing to have an open and honest conversation about grief and for Nikki to share that experience with us. And what was a very difficult time for the Fundraising Everywhere team as they worked through the illness and death of a close friend and colleague, Mandy Hine-Conway. It's really powerful stuff. And we are so grateful to Nikki for exploring this topic with us.

Paul Thomas  2:04  
And before we share that conversation with Nikki, Zoe there are a couple of AI focus stories you wanted to share and discuss this week.

Zoe Amar  2:13  
Absolutely. So we're recording this on Monday, the eighth of April. And some of our listeners might have heard on the news today that Microsoft is opening up a new AI hub in London, at its Paddington office, which some people might have have been to. And really one of the big stories behind that story is about Microsoft's commitment to the UK tech sector, and also how they have recently committed a really significant amount of money 2.5 billion. So they expanded datacenter infrastructure, and also, I believe, a really significant amount of money to training their staff as well. So again, this is a clear move by one of the key tech companies who's really driving a lot of the change and innovation in this space, about the need to have a UK presence, and also to recruit from the AI talent pool in the UK. So it's exciting stuff.

Paul Thomas  3:11  
Yeah, one of the things I said to you when you shared the story was that there is a there's always going to be a consolidation isn't there at this point where lots of innovation, lots of smaller organisations come together. And I think this is a real indication from Microsoft that they understand they understand the sector, they understand the world that they're living in. And they are bringing those experts together and making a huge investment here. I do hope it doesn't swallow some of the smaller, more sort of innovative firms that have started this quiet revolution in the UK, I worked with one associated with a Scottish university for a while, a few years back, and there's some really, really good thinking good people in this space. So hopefully, this is the the big investment that the sector needs. And hopefully we don't see too many smaller firms that are doing really interesting stuff fall by the wayside. But it sounds like a good deal to me.

Zoe Amar  4:09  
Yeah, so interesting one, isn't it. And I think it also shows that things are moving very quickly in the AI space. And the companies who are working in this area are making some big moves to indicate what their plans are going to be. So it'll be very exciting to see what they do with the AI hub, and also what the impact is on the charity sector as well.

Paul Thomas  4:33  
Yeah. And I think like everything that Microsoft do, it gets to the point where the it's all about consumer AI and I think it will be a really big shift as soon as Microsoft get involved in this sort of thing it's at the point where consumers have it in their hands and we've seen this year with the launch of co pilot that everyone is trying it out now and everyone is getting involved. So it's a real sense of AI, properly arriving. And I know we've been talking about it for two or three years, but with this investment and making the UK or bringing the UK into the centre of it, it really does put a marker in the sand.

Zoe Amar  5:14  
100%. Yeah, absolutely. So will be very exciting to see what the next steps on that are. And we'd love to hear what our listeners think of this issue as well, and what some of the consequences will be for them too. And I liked to your point about how there's probably going to be quite a lot of movement in this space. I mean, I think there's such a rush now to get the right talent that I would expect there to be quite a lot of merger and acquisition activity, continuing merger and acquisition activity on any company operating in this area. So yeah, I think it will be exciting to see what impact that has on some of the companies who are operating in developing all these tools that we're all beginning to use more of every day.

Paul Thomas  6:01  
Yeah, been away for a week and I've had clients emailing me about using AI for content generation, and things like that, whilst I've been away. So yeah, it's coming really into the consciousness of nearly every organisation as I said as soon as it hits, Microsoft Teams, and everyone's getting to experiment and play with it every day. So it's going to become more and more interesting. I think the investment as well into training looked like it was wider than just Microsoft employees as well. So I think they are making a real investment into AI skills across the board in UK business and industry. So yeah, really, really interesting. I guess watch this space in AI corner. AI alcove we should have as part of the beginning of this podcast.

Zoe Amar  6:47  
But I'm sure AI could design me a very nice alcove. There are certainly a few Facebook groups I'm in at the moment around house renovations. And AI has been put to good use there by people who are doing some interior design. So I'm sure it could design us a lovely alcove, possibly with a plant in it.

Paul Thomas  7:10  
Talking of applications of AI, you also included a link to a music story.

Zoe Amar  7:16  
Yes, obviously, you know, I included this because I know that you like me are a big music fan. And we're actually off to a gig together on Wednesday evening. But ahead of that some people some of our listeners might have seen that there's been a big music industry story about AI over the last few days. So Billie Eilish and Nicki Minaj have signed up amongst two hundred other artists to call for tech companies to stop training AI music generation tools on some of the work that's been created by songwriters and artists. And it was interesting when I sent this story over to you this morning Paul you've mentioned that there was someone that you'd been following for a few years on Twitter who had some really interesting thoughts on this. So would you be able to say a bit more about that?

Paul Thomas  8:06  
Yeah, yeah. So there's an artist called Holly Herndon. I think she's a US based artist, and for the last for a good few years. So I think I started following her about five or six years ago. And she's consistently used AI in her music. So she's used AI to create but also as a writing partner. So the way that she sees it is very much as creating a sort of a separate entity that she can work with and bounce ideas off of. She's even named it but she's created this this sort of AI that then she works with, is a working partner just in the way that you know, Lennon and McCartney might have worked together to write songs, but she's writing with the AI. And I think the challenge that I put back to you is yeah, I can, I can absolutely see where the industry is coming from. We'll share a link to a thread that Holly Herndon has shared, I'm not saying she's the definitive voice in this, by the way, but she has some really thoughtful stuff around the role of AI in our generally, and how art and artists should be working with it and embracing it. She's not sort of going all in on either side of the argument. I think she's trying to broaden it out somewhat. So I think that the basic argument is that, you know, we need to be protective of art and artists and AI could encroach into that space. And I think her argument is very much work alongside it. Yes, we need to be careful. We need to be mindful. But she doesn't see, you know, AI sentience as being the biggest the bigger challenge. She sees the challenges, human beings actually working alongside and with AI to augment what they're able to do. So it's a really interesting counterpoint not counterpoint, an interesting challenge to this story, I think.

Yeah definitely. And also, I was thinking when I was reading the article, how would it be enforced?

I don't know. I don't know. And how can you tell? I mean, I listened to I listen, obviously, we're podcasters, we listen to a lot of podcasts and listened to Kermode and Mayo. And their producers are constantly threatening them with replacing them with AI. And one, one episode, they actually did an AI introduction. So it wasn't Mark and Simon. It was an AI Mark and Simon. And it did sound slightly off, but I didn't question it at all, until they brought up the fact that that was an AI version of them and an AI produced intro to the programme. It did sign slightly off, as I said, there was a nuance to it that wasn't quite, you could tell. But it had to be pointed out to you once you knew it was there, then it was obvious. But the point is, if they can replicate voices that easily and replicate words, and put words into people's mouths that easily, then you know, the future of you and I doing this podcast is entirely in question. We could just programme the AI to produce episodes for us to say discuss these topics. It's I mean, it's at the point where, yeah, how do they police it? How do... everything would have to come with a sort of a stamp of authority, I guess a sort of a...Yeah, this is genuine.

Zoe Amar  11:24  
Like a watermark or something? 

Paul Thomas  11:26  
A digital watermark yeah. 

Zoe Amar  11:28  
Interesting. Interesting.

Paul Thomas  11:29  
It would be interesting. I think what we probably need are safe words and safe questions. So you know, I know it's you. And you know, it's me. And the listeners know, it's you and me, because we know the answer to specific questions that AI just couldn't possibly know the answer to.

Zoe Amar  11:45  
How do I know I'm not talking to AI now Paul, you might still be on a beach in France. And you've delegated this to your AI to come and talk to me.

Paul Thomas  11:53  
I'd like to think that nobody can see the pictures. But I'd like to think that AI would have a nice, slightly neater hair at the moment and look more presentable, that an AI version of myself would be. Yeah, wouldn't make the same stumbles and mistakes that we make, would they, they'd just carry on regardless and push through.

Zoe Amar  12:12  
Oh, good stuff. Good stuff. Well, it's it's still us, both of us non AI versions for now. And on that note, we should move on to our interview with Nikki Bell. And just to remind people again, please do remember, this conversation covers the topic of illness, specifically cancer, death and grieving. So please do take care from this point on. And please do stay tuned for a couple of extra questions and answers at the end of this discussion that we wanted to include, but felt like they needed to be presented separately from the main discussion. 

We are super excited to have Nikki Bell on Starts at the Top today. Nikki has worked with charities for over 13 years and is a fundraiser turned founder, now leading the fully remote Fundraising Everywhere team. From a failed first foray into leadership over a decade ago Nikki now works in a team of seven and has an equity first approach. In the past five years, she has navigated nearly every possible leadership challenge, including the illness and loss of a team member, unexpected bills causing financial crisis and supporting team members to step back to focus on their personal lives for mental health or having their first baby. Nikki Bell welcome to Starts at the Top. We're huge fans of Fundraising Everywhere. And it's a joy to have you here.

Nikki Bell  13:40  
Oh thank you so much for having me Zoe. And likewise to you and everything that you that you do.

Zoe Amar  13:45  
Well that's very kind. We're so lucky to have this time with you today to talk a bit about your story. So I wanted to begin by just digging into your bio a bit more. And, Paul, I know there was a question you wanted to ask about leadership and Nikki's journey, so go for it.

Paul Thomas  14:02  
Well, I think within the bio, if you if you say something like a failed first foray into leadership, I think we probably need to explore that a little bit. And I just thought it'd be useful for our listeners to hear that, you know, it's no bed of roses, this leadership path and can actually sometimes learning from past experience can can make things better the second time around. So can you tell us a bit more about that?

Nikki Bell  14:23  
Absolutely. So I started in the charity sector, about 13 years ago, and was very quickly promoted into a management position after six months. So if you can imagine being fresh to a sector, and now leading a team in an area that I didn't have any clue about it was face to face fundraising and all of a sudden I had like these face to face and individual given fundraisers. And to talk about it from a leadership point of view I was not the best person to lead that team. I definitely didn't give my best example of leadership. I was copying the kind of approaches from what I'd seen other people do, I wasn't thinking about the way that I wanted to lead a team. And that on top of the concerns that I had about, like, you know, not knowing how to do the job itself, that got pushed out into my team. And I wasn't supportive, I definitely didn't know how to look after people and give them structure. And it didn't actually know how to do the job. So I wasn't able to then help people to do it. And I wasn't in that job for very long, I think I very quickly realised that this wasn't the best for me. And it definitely wasn't the best for the people that were in the team. And thankfully, it was a short team. So hopefully, I didn't put people off a career for life. So I took a step back and went back into a fundraiser role. And it was 100% the best thing for me at that time, and the next time that I led a team was you know, Fundraiser Everywhere what like eight nine ten years later, obviously took that learning from that time, the all of the time that I had had in between to think about myself and who I was as a human and a leader. And I'd like to think that I'm in a much better position to, to lead people now and do it more confidently and without insecurities and with a lot more knowledge about what it is to to lead people and take them with you.

Zoe Amar  16:16  
And I think it's so great you're sharing that because when you make that first step into management and leading it can feel like quite a scary thing, can't it? I remember making that transition myself. And how hard that was. And one of the things that made it hard was thinking about, Oh, gosh, everyone gets this, you know, people can start leading straightaway, they instinctively know how to do it. But it's not really like that is it? You have to learn how to do it leaders and managers are not fully formed from day one, are they?

Nikki Bell  16:47  
Absolutely, I was really young at the time I hadn't I mean, this isn't, you know, outsourcing the blame, but I hadn't had any kind of example of what like great leadership looked at at that time, I was quite fresh in my career, I'd come from organisations where I'd actually been bullied, you know, from from from leadership and people that I worked with, and I just didn't know how to look, look after people, you know, when I was so focused on just doing like my own job, I wasn't there for the for the people around me, they didn't have that support, and they didn't have that guidance, and I retreated into myself. And that's 100% not the way to go for things if you're trying to inspire people, if you're trying to support them, and encourage them. So I definitely learned a lot from that. And, you know, I have seen and spoke to those people since and there's no hard feelings on that from from either side, I think there's an understanding that we were just all in positions where we weren't meant to be there. And that obviously comes from a failure of my own as well of going for that promotion, just because I thought it was like the next thing that I that I had to do. But actually, you know, taking that step back and going, let's start again, let's get this foundation right, let's actually take the steps in the direction that I want to go in not where I think I should be going. And I'm glad I did that quite quickly, early on in my career, rather than, you know, making those mistakes now, when I've got a much larger team, much bigger impact, and you know, it would have a much bigger outcome for for many people.

Zoe Amar  18:10  
Absolutely. And one of the reasons why we were so keen to have you on is because I've always admired your very open and generous style of leadership. And even when I was reading your bio this morning, I was thinking this is such a unique bio, because so much of it is about other people and how you support other people rather than saying so did X, Y, and Z wonderful things. So can you tell us a bit more about the present day, then? Can you describe the story so far with Fundraising Everywhere for anyone that doesn't know it.

Nikki Bell  18:44  
So in 2019, Simon and I, who is the co-founder of Fundraising Everywhere, we were consultants at the time for charities, and we were actively involved in the conference circuit. So speaking at them, organising them bringing people together, there was one experience I'm sure, Julian from Edinburgh Dog & Cat Home loves to talk about where we did a workshop in a sewage plant. So you know, we were getting around a bit and doing a bit of a bit of training. And we realised that when we were in these spaces that there was quite a lot of people weren't there, you know, they were excluded from these learning networking opportunities so we had to talk about what we could do to change that. And that's where Fundraising Everywhere came from. Originally, the idea was that we would do a once a year virtual conference, pulling together all of these people and networks that we'd built from around the world. And we'd bring them to fundraisers everywhere, you know, through the screens at home and in their laptops. And we really quickly realised after that first one, I think it was November 2019, that there was there was more ado people needed support. And of course we all remember what happened in March 2020. So things snowballed from that point. And this kind of side project that Simon and I had come up with quickly snowballed into a lot of work that we didn't have capacity to do for ourselves, you know, I was atempting to homeschool my son told me I was the worst teacher he'd ever had so I was trying to like homeschool and do my consultancy and do Fundraising Everywhere at the same time, so we decided, right, okay, well, let's start to build a team around us. And long story short over the past, what five years, it's gone from me and Simon to now having, you know, the team of seven that we have fully remote team. We've got people in France, Ireland, based around the UK, and we have some freelancers that work with us as well. A lot of the challenges that have come from that is we never actually set out to grow a business and build a team. But on the flip side, I actually think that that's a good thing, because we haven't had to think about it too hard and too much. We've just actually had to like act in the moment. But we've always gone from if we were working somewhere, like what would be the absolute best situation and scenario that we could build, and then give that to other people. So you know, when you touched on the intro, with the various challenges that we've that we've had to make, from a leadership point of view, before we've even gone to your legal people, like you, finance people, me and Simon have always chatted and been like, what's the right thing to do? Like, what is this next step? And then can we actually make that happen? And that's been so free. And I think us being in control of things has allowed us to grow something that's just felt so right, because we haven't had like these expectations, these pressures from these huge budgets and existing ways of working or like existing plans. And that can be quite scary. But it also gives so much freedom and for us as well.

Paul Thomas  21:34  
It is certainly quite frightening that that's, you don't hear that that often, everything we do is based around the right thing to do. That's so refreshing.

Nikki Bell  21:43  
Thanks. Do you know what though we've always said as well, though, that it shouldn't be the exception, like that should be the norm. And we've always been open to talking to people and saying how we did it. And one of the frustrating things that we found as business owners, is when you go to your legal people or your finance people, they're like, Oh, this is what you can do to get around this and do that. And we're like, but we don't want to do that, like we want to. And then we've had to like rewrite things and create new contracts and create new ways of working to actually treat people nicely if we're going to, you know, use quite simple terms on it. And it has been so interesting, like to navigate like the world of business in just a way that it's like, well, let's just do things without thinking about like the profit part of it, or, like how we can get like the most out of it. So yeah, it's been it's been interesting.

Zoe Amar  22:28  
Yeah, it's fascinating. I mean, as you were talking about, like Paul was saying, I was thinking about how very rarely does one hear that as a metric of success. I mean, particularly in the startup world, it's often about, I want to get to this level of profitability and this level of profitability and this amount of external investment. But I love the fact that your business is centred on well are we doing the right thing? Does it feel right? Are we treating people right? And that should be at the heart of all businesses really shouldn't it?

Nikki Bell  22:56  
Yeah, definitely. And I can see and understand though, how other places have to operate in different in different settings. And in places like we, if we, if we look at it simply like we are an online platform that delivers like virtual conferences and webinars, so we can afford that like flexibility. And I understand where some places might have to have, you know, firmer boundaries, because maybe the outcome of things going wrong for them is a lot more catastrophic for us. So I do understand that we have with the freedom that we have, it does make it easier for it. But it's not impossible to bring elements of what we do through into other places. You know, if you think about a charity leader, they have so much like responsibility on them, like not just from a team and income point of view, but like a brand and reputation. And there's so many other layers to it. So you know, we do have that privilege of just having a bit more like creativity and freedom with it. But yeah, it doesn't make it impossible for other people. And you know, even in trying our best and always doing the right thing doesn't always mean that we get it right for all people as well, which has been a very interesting learning and an understanding for me over the past few years, especially.

Zoe Amar  24:06  
So it would be great to talk about that past year because one of the reasons why this interview came about as well as obviously, knowing you well as I do, as I think you've put up this brilliant LinkedIn post which was about how you grew without trying to grow last year, which I guess lines up with some of the things you've said, so can you tell us more about that journey?

Nikki Bell  24:28  
Yes. So 2022 was a really hard year for Fundraising Everywhere. So it was the first year that things went back to normal inverted commas for for for anyone listening to this audio only, you know, in person stuff came back, we were unsure about, you know, where the future of Fundraising Everywhere was going and from a financial perspective, we really struggled and there was many months that me and Simon, the team were fine because we made it so but there was like quite a lot of months that me and Simon like never got paid. So when we went into 2023, we were in a much more stable position, things started to even out you know, we've improved the relationships that we were growing across the sector. And that in turn, like meant more income, we had a team at full capacity. And we were like, right 2023 is the year we're gonna smash it, we're gonna go international like this is going to be amazing. And then very quickly, in the first couple of months, we had, you know, those three big pieces of news. So my co-founder had to step back to prioritise his personal mental health, we had the wonderful news that someone in the team was leaving to have their first baby, and she is back now after maternity leave. But the biggest one was around Mandy, who was and just, you know, for a trigger warning for anyone listening that I am about to touch on life long illnesses and cancer. And she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. And, and obviously, you know, we know the outcomes of that aren't aren't great. So we were just like, right, let's scrap this. Like the the plan, obviously, that we that we had to grow, and we just stripped it right back. And we were like, if we don't do anything new this year, if we don't create extra like, stresses and requirements on the team, what is the absolute minimum that we can kind of bring in to make sure that we can still push out what we've promised to people and make it good quality. And we're very much focused on like, what can we do internally to improve processes, improve service, and just really think about, like, what our values and our approaches is going to be. So we went from this big plans to, you know, I can't even remember what like the growth plans were to, right, actually, we're going to bring this back, cut it again, under to what we expected and just go for, like sheer maintenance. And it was really interesting, because when we reviewed the finances for for 2023, we actually ended up with with growth anyway. And it was, you know, scary and terrifying to go from this year of, you know, financial difficulty. I think that was in the intro as well, the the unexpected bills to go on. Right? Okay, well, we're not actually going to grow not only that, we're going to like, reduce the targets and where we're going. But it was just so amazing to see that growth anyway that came from I just, you know, from the sheer work and talent in the team, from the support of the sector, from the people that we work with. And most importantly, it really showed us like, where we should be invested in our efforts, which is in those relationships, it's in those people and in collaborating with those people that have the same approach and values as us. And it's about like the team, I think that really gave them a lot of, like confidence and reassurance that they were working in the right place. Because in when the times got really hard and stretch we weren't like right, okay, three people are out. So now you have like, three peoples extra work. It was like, no, we strip this back and, and that I took on more all of that work really that that came through from from those people, probably not the best approach, I probably should have brought someone in to cover some of that. But yeah, there was other things to focus on at the time. And this year, touch wood, crickey and I said it last year, as well. But this year is is going to be is going to be a great year for us.

Zoe Amar  27:59  
And I can really hear how much you've done during that year to make everything stay on track to grow to look after the team. And we also know as a founder how that takes a certain amount of energy. How did you keep going through that time?

Nikki Bell  28:19  
So a lot of the times Zoe, I didn't I actually found it, I feel quite emotional now like talking about it. It was one of the well, it was probably the hardest year that I've had as a founder, as a human. Because even when you're trying to do everything right and approach everything, you know, the way there's always that like underlying worry of, you know, am I getting this right? Am I doing the right thing? Like am I am I doing enough so genuinely, I don't I don't think I did. And obviously there's probably still like an element there. Excuse me that that still affects me. I spent a lot of effort and time in like my personal relationships and the relationships that I'd built around me for for people to support. I spent a lot of time in the sea just getting out and running and screaming into the void as often as I could and the situation with Mandy like taught me a lot as well around the things that are important, which is you know how to make the world around me a better place how to make the relationships that I'm connected with in a much better position. And how do I live a life where at the end of it or on the end of you know, if my time with Fundraising Everywhere that I'm genuinely proud of what I do. So quite a lot of you know timeout self reflection, and just focusing on what's important got me through that time, but it was many moments where where I definitely struggled.

Zoe Amar  29:47  
Well firstly, thank you for being so open about such a challenging year and secondly, goodness me well done for getting through it because that really is multiple challenges coming from all angles isn't it? I mean, anyone who's ever run a business, which Paul and I obviously both do, that's everything everywhere, isn't it, you've got the financial challenges, you've got the challenge of your co founder needing a bit of time away, you've got the challenge of losing a team member, which is huge. And when we last spoke, we talked about how that had also happened in our business not so long ago. And then also you've got the, the extra burden of of looking after the team, which is you're saying earlier is absolutely the right thing to do in your biggest job as a leader during a situation like that. But that's hard as well, isn't it when you also need a bit of support as well, very understandably.

Nikki Bell  30:43  
Yeah, and I should mention as well, you know, there were many people that got me through that that time. You know, friends, there's, there's people that I work with, in the sector, mentors, coaches, just even people like checking in and just offering like, a cup of tea, like all of that got got me through the moments where, you know, it was a bit sketchy with the whole payment thing, there was friends that I'd made in the sector that chucked us like an extra bit of work, because I could do that on the side too, to keep the Fundraising Everywhere thing going. So there was a lot of people around me as well that were there in those moments that showed up. And I think that in connection and making sure that you're giving back to people in those times where you're able to and just genuinely asking for help in the moments where you need it, that was a huge thing to get us through as well. So I didn't do it alone, it was definitely people that pulled us up and pulled us through when I needed it. And investing in in those circles and relationships is something I'll definitely, definitely keep doing.

Zoe Amar  30:44  
And that's such an important skill, isn't it. And that's what I've always admired about you Nikki because because you and Simon have got this really strong focus on doing the right thing and treating people right because of that there is a lot of respect and goodwill towards you both in the sector. And that's why people have given you that work, because they admire what you do, they know the difference that you make. And because you really look after everyone around you. So that's that's really, that's really good that your friends and colleagues were able to help out because you will have made 10 times that difference towards them previously.

Nikki Bell  32:20  
Thank you, that's really nice to hear when when you work in a digital business, and you are quite removed from quite a lot of the work that you're doing a lot of the time, it's it's easy to forget that, you know, we wonder if you're if you're doing enough, or you know if it's having the right impact. So that is lovely to hear. And yeah, genuinely appreciate like every person that's been there for us, you know, since day one, yourself included. So thank you.

Zoe Amar  32:47  
Oh thank you. So I know when we spoke a few weeks ago, you know, we touched on this subject, and we kind of bonded again over the experience that you've been through and our experiences as a team when we lost Brad about 18 months ago now. Are you able to say I mean, obviously, depending on what you're comfortable to talk about, there's no pressure at all. But is there anything that you can share about your experience of dealing with the incredibly sad loss of of Mandy?

Nikki Bell  33:20  
Yeah it's interesting, because since then, I've heard a few stories from from leaders in the sector through the work I do with like the Pizza for Losers workshops, where we, where we discuss vulnerability and learning from times that we got wrong. And there was a couple of instances where someone has had a member of their team that has been diagnosed and they've lost them and they've not felt like they've approached that situation in in the right way, or the right way for them or, or the situation that they're in because they're all very different depending on the person that you're that you're working with. So I share this with the intention of helping people that find themselves in that situation, because when we got the diagnosis and the update from from Mandy, the first thing that I did was turn to the internet, like how do you look after an employee that's that's been diagnosed with this and Macmillan have some fantastic resources. But I found that quite a lot of the resources that are out there are transactional. It's like, what do you do to keep your business running? Or like, what do you do for this? And it was like, well, what do we do like the other way? So one of the biggest things I would say to anyone that goes through that situation, and I hope no one ever has to is just always keep that space there for that person. One of the biggest things that I realised and understood very early on that for Mandy, Fundraising Everywhere and her work and her identity as a person and having that purpose, having a place for her to come and work was so important. And obviously that's for someone running a business, I can see why they can be like a conflict of that because if the person isn't there or able to work, then that has a negative impact. But you just you have to make it work. You have to keep that space there for that person. And you have to support them to be able to contribute at times that's that's right for them because I think for her in her hardest moments, this is where she wanted to be to show that she could still do it and show you know that there was a reason to stick in and be here. As it happened at the time, the FSC, the FSI sorry, had sadly shut down and Chipego and was kind of looking for work and she was their membership person from there. So she did come in and and support us on a temporary freelance basis but Mandy's role was always kept open. For Chipego we kept a completely separate and more junior job title so that Mandy always knew that there was space here for her and she just dropped back in and out when when she when she needed it. And I remember her saying that that was something that she'd felt was that when she had gone into have like her treatments, and she was speaking to other people that they didn't have that, but for us, it felt like the bare minimum. And yeah, it, it was a tough thing to look at. But it kind of went in line with those plans that we'd had already to just kind of step back, pull the goals back a little bit and make it work. And I remember saying to Simon, if Fundraising Everywhere goes under because we've used the freedom and capacity that we have to make someone's like final months on Earth, like the best that it can possibly be, then I'm completely fine with that. Like, if that's what that if that's what takes us out. And as it happens, that isn't what happened anyway. But I it definitely yeah, it kind of made me feel a bit more centred and calm, that we've that we've done the right thing in that moment from the feedback we've had from Mandy and her family, when we'd gone down for the for the for the service. And you still wonder, do you, don't you like could I have done more? Was there anything that I could have done differently? And perhaps there would have been. But yeah, it's definitely showing me what's what's important when it comes to, to work business and everything else that goes with it.

Zoe Amar  36:53  
It completely changes you, grief, doesn't it? That's my big learning from this experience. And also, other experiences of loss I've been through previously, you're not the same person on the other side of it as you were going in.

Nikki Bell  37:09  
And yeah I'm sorry to hear about Brad and your loss as well. Because yeah, it's, it's, I'm not sure what I expected. Because we knew what the outcome was gonna be, you know, from from from quite early on, and you kind of prepare for it, but then you kind of not preparing for it as well, because you kind of don't want to accept it, and you don't want to make it real. But it definitely hit us harder than than what I thought like, I for at least two or three weeks was just useless, couldn't do anything that I had to pull out quite a lot of commitments, and I put myself in for I'd spent a lot of time in bed and and not able to contribute much. But it was helpful. It wasn't helpful for the team. But it was, it was kind of supporting for the team because we all gave ourselves that permission, we actually put some comms out at the time saying like, we'll go on, we're going dark for a bit like we're going to ground for a bit like the next two weeks, we're just we're not going to be around and we just appreciate your patience and support. And that was to the team as well. It was like look like, here's this kind of grieving period. But there isn't like a period, obviously, it continues. But it did allow us all to just like not have that distraction of work to really like sit with our feelings and talk with each other about what we needed and what we wanted to do next. And I think it helped us like ease back into coming back and starting to make positive differences. And we were talking about how what can we do now to celebrate Mandy? And that's where the Mandy Training Fund had came from. And we did you know, tribute notices at the time as well. And yeah, I think just kind of having that, that period to just really feel and accept and admit that that that we're feeling it really helped us move move forward afterwards. But yeah, we still, you know, we still feel it now we still talk about her and when we have our get togethers, you know, there's still like a place for her there and we include her. So you know, it does still bubble up. But I think we're getting better at it kind of getting through those emotions as they happen now.

Zoe Amar  39:08  
I think that permission you gave your team to grieve is one of the best things you could that's the best thing, the only thing you could have done in in that situation, I think is so important one of the my big learnings from you know, various losses that I have been through. So the way the Victorians grieve, do you know, the the wearing of the black and having those visible signals, I'm going through this, this big thing that's happening is is a really important thing too. Because you're creating that space, you're giving yourself that permission to say, I'm not the person I was beforehand and I need this space to feel these feelings. And one of my regrets from that, that time was I didn't take any time off. And I should have and you did absolutely the right thing with your team you know giving yourself the time whilst also giving them the time and space away because it's a huge thing to process. And I don't think the modern workspace is really set up for for grieving. I mean, it's in a company like yours, where you've done so much to work on making people feel that they belong. You've set the foundation for that absolutely beautifully. I wonder whether in the modern workplace, you know, we really talk about death in the way that is, is healthy, and we should do.

Nikki Bell  40:32  
I mean, you did what you felt was right in that moment, as well. And no one prepares you for it, you know, that it's not in the setting up of business like handbook like this is how you deal with it for you, that was right for you in that moment. So like, yeah, I hope that you kind of have that kindness for yourself as well of being like you did what you had to do. For the wider like, capitalist world that is focused on like money and speed and growth. No, I don't think that there is a space for, for death and, or like death acceptance, and accepting how people feel or even like vulnerability and feelings like those words aren't common like in workspaces. And it's something that I've really had to work on over the past few years, as well of, how do I be, like more vulnerable and open about how I'm feeling and helping to articulate those in a much better way, because it does create better change, it does break down a lot of barriers, and it does remove some of the sticking points that I've definitely seen in places of work where those walls and expectations is still up. I'm not sure what the answer is, I think, you know, we could talk about policies, and we can talk about structures. But I actually think that every situation, especially when, especially when you are dealing with the loss of a friend or a colleague, every situation is so personal. And even if we'd had something written down about, like, how do we deal with this, you can't follow that you just have to kind of go off paper and just be like the game, what is the right thing to do? So yeah, it's, it's a very unique experience that I hope no one ever has to go through. But we will obviously all experience it in different parts of our life as well. And I think that's where I found it quite tough. I've been privileged not to have lost anyone in my personal life for a very long time. So all of these things kind of got thrown up and, and had to sort them out. Not just for myself, but I guess like, in front of the sector, but also like, whilst being strong for my team as well. And it was a very, very challenging situation, but also has taught me so much about myself and where I'm going and where like I want my soul to be.

Zoe Amar  42:35  
And that's the weird silver lining that could come out of a situation like this. Because as you describe that journey, and what you've been through and the team have been through, I can see how this is a extra strength in some ways, if I can put it that way that you've developed as a leader, because you've, you've really learned how to look after your team during a situation like this.

Nikki Bell  43:03  
Yeah, I can, I can see that. And again, I hope that it gives them assurances that in those tough moments, we'll make the right decisions. That's for them both as individuals and as a collective. In terms of leading an organisation leading people, it's definitely like, given us a lot more freedom. I mean, I don't know if people swear on you on your podcast but, do they? Can we say the F word?

Zoe Amar  43:23  
For you, Nikki, we're gonna give you special dispensation go for it.

Nikki Bell  43:28  
You can bleep it out. It has genuinely helped me be like do you know what fuck it like this, if this is the right thing to do, or if this is not working, and we have to let it go. Or if this isn't working out the way that I wanted to, or even on days where people just aren't feeling it, it is just like, you know, what, if there's anything that we've learned from that is that life is short, like you do just need to spend your time with the people in the spaces and in the places that are genuinely making a difference that make you feel fulfilled. So what can we do as an organisation to create that for other people? And yeah, that's definitely been a silver lining that's come out of it for me. 

Zoe Amar  44:00  
And what a beautiful way.

Paul Thomas  44:01  
I was just saying I'm working with someone at the moment, who's well, I didn't have to because my mum was there. But my we lost my dad to vascular dementia a couple of years ago, and I'm working with someone at the moment who's going through exactly the same same, same illness with both their parents and one of the parents died before before Christmas. And I think the the tough thing there is that she had to leave her work in order to do that. And now we're giving a bit of a route back in to say, well, you know, yeah, come and dip your toe in, see how you go, but always on the proviso that any moment that might have to come to an end because she's going to have to deal with the same with the other, the other parent. And I think that's probably something that leaders are going to have to deal with more and more because as you said, things were signalled. You know, you you get a diagnosis and you know which way it's going and you kind of you learn to live with that grief before the event has even happened. I think you know, I think I gave myself a day, maybe a long weekend when my dad finally died, because we've done all the the grieving already, or a lot of it, not all of the grieving, but we've done a lot of it already, because the person we knew wasn't there anymore. So it's really tough, I think for leaders to, to go through that and experience it, but also come out the other side and know how to deal with it better.

Nikki Bell  45:22  
And, you know, that is, yeah, I'm really sad that's sad to hear to hear that as well, that must be a horrible situation for that person. And you'd have gone through and I'm really sorry about that. And it proves I think that, that part of it's difficult to have like a one approach fits everything for everyone. So I think if we always just come if you just have like a human policy of like, how would we want this person to feel supported? And what would we want to do to give them this kind of place where they can come back to or where they know that they can talk about other than know that they're looked after. But then every case will have to be individual because it's, you know, that impact of someone and their parents and for yourself. Like that's going to be completely different from somebody else that's, you know, lost someone suddenly, and you know, there's so many like factors of it, isn't there? And, yeah, it's something that we're not like prepared for, that we're not supported through. But hopefully, like people talking about it more, we can kind of share some of that and find people that can that can help. But yeah, it's it happens to us all every day doesn't it, it's somewhere like whether it is and when we work with like whether it's a friend or family member. So yeah, it's really interesting now to think about it that there was such a lack of, I guess, like resource out there to help in those moments.

Zoe Amar  46:32  
Yeah. And I know what you mean, because I think that there's a lot of stuff that deals with the immediate practicalities. So things like how much bereavement leave to people get and you know how to sort of cope with some of the logistics of the situation as it were in the workplace. But there's less of the the ongoing stuff. And I think one of the big things I've learned and been interested to know what you may think of this is that it really is a work in progress, isn't it? Bereavement is one of those things where you can be fine for a few weeks, and then you suddenly want to start crying in the middle of a meeting because you remember, that person's like favourite cheese, something very random like that. And how it's, it's then quite quite hard to say, well, I'm sorry, I need a bit of space for that, or, or just to sort of create the opportunity to talk about that in a way that feels safe to be vulnerable. So yeah, I think you're right, there's there's not a lot of support out there for that ongoing support that people may need.

Nikki Bell  47:39  
And to flag as well. I mean, there's people with pets, as well, like I've heard of this was one of the people that was on our team last year, a previous place that she worked at when she when she'd lost a pet, which is like a family member, just that support that's there for that. And it's just yes, it's we have to think about like loss in its entirety in what it can mean to different people. And yeah, there's not one one approach fits fits all.

Paul Thomas  48:06  
Yeah, I think the anything that impacts on your day to day, and just being open and honest about what it is, you know, I've got other people that I work with just going through sort of relatively simple illnesses, but illness in itself is it's you're gonna have to take the day off, asking them to do it, you know, despite the fact you're going to have to perhaps take on more work and just giving them that space to do what they need to do. I think it's just so important.

Nikki Bell  48:34  
And for the person who's experiencing it, from my understanding, and again, you know, speaking with people in the in the failure workshops that have been running recently, they are worried about their impact on other people, you know, how it's going to affect them, like how it's going to make them feel other than letting them down. So I think as leaders, we have to proactively put these things in place and we can't wait to be asked for stuff like we have to kind of go out there have the conversations, find out what they need, involve them in the conversations as well. Like, it might be tough, it might be awkward, but like we have to, we have to make that happen. Because again, like how we experience grief, how we experience loss is going to be completely different to the to the next person. So it does all come back to that conversation that outreach like the actually trying to like make a difference and pushing it forward. And everything else will have to follow the side and I think we have to be okay with that. Because it is going to happen. But again, you know, if you do come through off the off the other side, because there will be people there who will help to pick you up and carry you through.

Zoe Amar  49:38  
And what would you say to anyone who's right in the middle of this at the moment who might have just recently lost a colleague or a team member? What would your advice to them be?

Nikki Bell  49:49  
Oh crickey, that's a hard one. First of all, I'm really sorry that they've gone through this because it's weird and hard as a work friend or a work connection, because there's almost like this element of... basically my advice would be all of this stuff that I'm about to say is completely normal. So if you're like wondering, like, what on earth is going on like, it's okay. So there's this like element of where is that boundary? Am I overstepping? And, like, Am I doing enough? And my advice when you're thinking about that is, as long as that person knows that you're there, and you're holding space for them, and you're just checking in with them at regular intervals, even if you don't hear back. Like, that's, that's enough. What else, what else? Oh, definitely, you know, speak in support with the people that are around you to get that support as well. Because you will be constantly thinking about what you can do to help that person to help your team. And often like you forget in yourself like, well, what are what what do I need to bring that back up and like the energy levels back up, and it's totally fine and necessary to get in touch with people and say, I just need help on this moment. And help might be something practical, like, Oh, can you do this for me? Can you come for a cup of coffee? But help might also just be like space and understand and then it's okay to ask for that as well. And that feels really weird to say, I can't do this for you right now. But can you wait, those are those are two key things. And I guess my third bit of advice, because I like to do things in threes are, as long as you are coming from a position of I'm gonna say it again, like the the doing the right thing bit. That's all you can. That's all you can do. And you can get advice, and you can get support, and you can definitely soundboard it. But ultimately, like if you try and do the right thing, then you're gonna get the right outcome. And it's going to be really hard. And it's going to uncover all of these like weird feelings and experiences and emotions for you. And it's totally fine, to like, take space and work through those yourselves. But you know, these will all come out of the other side. And as long as you've tried to kind of make the experience better for the person who's actually going through it and experiencing the worst part of it, then then that's, that's, that's enough for for for a leader.

I think that's great advice. And it's actually very life affirming talking about this stuff isn't it in a in a weird kind of way, because it's, it's so hard. It's so hard personally, it's so hard professionally. I think the way that you are remembering Mandy is such a beautiful thing. Still saying her name, still talking about the difference she made still creating this, this wonderful way to honour all the things that were important to her. And that is such a positive thing to have come out of this really tough situation.

Yeah. And we get we have spoken to her husband and her family as well and got permission as well at every point to make sure it's okay. And shared things with them, you know, before we've shared anything publicly. And it's been really nice for them as well, we created this message board, which I've just remembered now, after we shared the when when we shared the news for people to post stuff. And it was so lovely for me to read, like all of these messages from people that I hadn't heard about or heard from before, like saying how she'd made a difference. So we were able to like share that with with her family. And you know, it's typical family crack for anyone that works in the charity sector. They're like, what do you do? Like, what's your job? So it was lovely to be able to give this message board to her husband and say like, this is this is what she did, like, this is the difference that it made. And that's still there for them. So yeah, having their kind of sign off on and approval and insight on stuff is been really helpful as well, as, you know, we check in with them. And again, it's kind of like, what's the right frequency, but I just come from a place of like, if I think of it, and I feel like I have that need to is it appropriate? And am I doing it for me or the person but if it is like a genuine from a genuine space of, you know, this is going to help them you know, I'll check in and get in touch. So, so yes, it was still kind of like learning this post experience process. But yeah, it's obviously you know, you just have to remember that for them and the family, it's going to be a much bigger impact for them.

Zoe Amar  54:11  
Of course, of course. Well thank you very much for sharing your story, Nikki. That's amazing.

Paul Thomas  54:18  
Thank you for sharing all that Nikki it's been quite cathartic. I think for all of us today.

Nikki Bell  54:24  
I find that the more we talk about it like the easier it becomes and even if one person listens to this and they and they help get the situation right for somebody then that works for me. So thank you for having us on. And you know, it's the Starts from the Top podcast and you know, exposing more people and more leadership conversations is brilliant. So just well done to everything that you do and as well to make the conversations happen.

Zoe Amar  54:47  
Oh, thank you Nikki.

And I've never done a podcast before, my first time so here you go. 

Oh, well we really appreciate you sharing your story and your experiences this morning and that will have absolutely helped people out there in ways that you'll never know. I mean, maybe if people it has helped them, maybe they, they can reach out to you. But I know it will definitely have made a difference to people out there going through similar things. So thank you so much for sharing where you're at and where you've been.

Nikki Bell  55:17  
Oh, thank you. Yes. And to say that if anyone is going through it, then yeah, if I can help just reach out. My email is nikki@fundraisingeverywhere.com So happy to, happy to help.

Zoe Amar  55:29  
Thank you to Nikki for joining us on the podcast. I'm sure you'll agree that was a really moving, really open interview. And we are so grateful to Nikki for being so honest about her experiences with losing a colleague, and the impact that the death of Mandy had on on their team. And it was so refreshing, I thought to have a leader talking so openly about grief in the workplace.

Paul Thomas  56:00  
I've never had to deal with at the workplace. Obviously, both you and I have dealt with grief quite recently, in our private lives. But in the workplace, I've worked alongside people that are going through quite severe critical illnesses. And luckily for for me, and for them, come back from those. But I mean, it was one of those conversations, wasn't it that once we'd finished, it put an entirely different perspective and focus on the day. And I can't remember much about what I also had to do on that day, because it was just sort of being taken out of it. And I think, again, an instance of what we always say with this podcast that what we hope we're doing is creating a space where people feel free to explore the topics that they naturally want to explore. Yeah, we send through some questions, but the questions sort of almost went out of the window with this one, we just followed Nikki's instinct. And yeah, the the honesty, and the the the very real nature of the emotions that she shared with us. And she and the team at Fundraising Everywhere went through, I thought were really quite powerful, and will stay with me for a long, long time.

Zoe Amar  57:15  
Me too. And after that conversation with Nikki, I was reflecting on how grief doesn't get talked about nearly enough in the workplace, which obviously, was a theme, which came through as part of our discussion. And actually, as leaders, we, we need to be more comfortable talking about it and modelling that behaviour so that the people we work with are comfortable to talk about that and also to raise some of the things that that they're going through as well. So thank you to Nikki for teaching us that lesson.

Paul Thomas  57:50  
Yeah. And it's in the news as well, a little bit at the moment, there's quite a bit of discussion around pet grief and stuff. Nikki mentioned it at the end of the conversation. And I think what was my biggest takeaway is that what we shouldn't do, as leaders or people in business is define other people's grief for them, you know, we had a, we had an incident very, very close to the death of my father where our cat was run over and killed. And that because of the immediacy of, of what happened, versus the long, drawn out battle my dad had with dementia almost felt worse, in a way it was it was so instant, and so shocking, and had such an impact on us as a sort of a young family, that I don't think that can be overlooked. But it was so hard that day, the same day, going into work meetings and saying that I might be off my game today, because this has happened. And almost seeing in the eyes of some of the people that you're working with that. What do you mean, it's just a cat? Well, you know, I'm not going to define that grief for anyone. I think for us it was he was more than a cat. He was a member of the family. And I think that's the sort of thing that you just can't you can't legislate for it. You shouldn't try to define for the people that you're working with. So yeah, I think it was a really interesting discussion, and one that I was just, you know, proud to be a part of, actually, I think it was a really, really good defining moment for this podcast. And yeah, thanks very much to Nikki for sharing that.

Zoe Amar  59:33  
100% Thanks so much, Nikki, for a great discussion. Very inspiring as ever.

Paul Thomas  59:39  
As always, we really do appreciate that you've listened all the way through to the end of the episode. So thank you very much for that you can support the podcast by leaving us a five star review wherever you listen to us. It really does help us to reach more people. So if you've enjoyed what you've heard today, do share us with a friend.

Zoe Amar  59:56  
And thank you so much for listening today. And we'll see you in a couple of weeks with a brand a new episode of Starts at the Top.

Paul Thomas  1:00:03  
See you then and bye for now.

Zoe Amar  1:00:05  
Bye for now, see you soon.

Paul I think you've got a couple of quick questions to share, haven't you from your Whatsapp group?

Paul Thomas  1:00:15  
Yeah Richard Spear was asking about you started to do in in real life conferences now. And what sort of led to that development? Do you think hybrid can be an equal experience to what you've been delivering so far.

Nikki Bell  1:00:28  
So interestingly, we were meant to start the in person stuff last year. But that was one of the projects that we put on ice, when we approached things with a strip back approach. And the idea with the in person events, they're not conferences, they're more kind of just really quick opportunities for people to come together and meet in person. Because virtual as a medium is brilliant, it's a really fast, effective way to reach many people with great content in one go. But most importantly, that they can get it at a time that's right for them, because we do have this huge on demand library that people can dip into. But what we wanted was for an opportunity to take some of those relationships that they've built online, and actually bring like a human element into it because the human element and connection is still important. And even when we started fundraising everywhere in 2019, we always said this is not to replace in person, it's to enhance it. So we brought the IRL space together in real life spaces together to just bring our community together in one room for like an hour and a half, say thank you, you know, give them a really quick session and just make them feel inspired. And then send them on their way, with like a face to the name of the people that they've gotten to know online. So that's the intention behind them. But I think hybrid conferences in any opportunity, where more content and resources available to more people is is great. And we've always kind of pushed for in person conferences to have that online element. But yeah, our kind of main focus will always be online with these like little pocket of satellites in real life spaces for people to just come in, feel a bit buzzed for a bit and feel connected, and then crack back on, you know.

Paul Thomas  1:02:04  
So I've known you for 55 minutes, and I could have probably preempted the answer to that question. Is the human touch, isn't it? 

Nikki Bell  1:02:12  
Yeah that's the short, that's the short answer.

Paul Thomas  1:02:13  
It's great, it's great. And then the second question was from Rory Traynor at the Starlight Children's Foundation, and he's asked for three things, but I'm just gonna ask you for one because we're short on time. But if Nikki had a magic wand, what one thing would they change about the sector immediately?

Nikki Bell  1:02:29  
Oh, Rory, that's a really good question. You could've prep me with that one. One thing that I would change, I mean, it comes down to it being a more equitable place. So you know, we've talked a lot in this podcast around death and grief and experiencing loss. But there's so many, well, not but and, there's so many people on a daily basis that are experiencing hardships on much different levels much more impactful, you know, directed to them backgrounds. And I think if there was one thing that I could change around that is to make it a more equitable space and place for people to feel safe for people to feel safe to be vulnerable, but most importantly, to actually like, come to their job and enjoy that and feel like they that they belong. And that's rooted in lots of other things that might be connected to Rory's other questions. But yeah, if there was one thing that I would change in it, it would be around equity and all of the things associated with that. And there's a lot of great people having great conversations about change, and that which I'm sure you've covered, and you'll cover on this podcast as well.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai